In search of why vinyl lovers love vinyl
- Thread starter ChrisM
- Start date
I'm sure who ever makes your DAC is very sad to hear that.
I definitely prefer my standalone DAC to the one on my Pioneer HT Receiver.
The biggest difference I experienced in my record playing life was switching from cheap integrated phono preamps to well designed dedicated units. It is not a subtle difference, at least it wasn't for me. And since getting my EROS I have never been happier. As a matter of fact I like it more than my Japanese friends preamps that cost more than their BMWs.
And that d2 is a pretty nice sounding turntable. I would use it over a p300 myself. But I have always like the sound of the Technics direct drive tables, and have never been a huge fan of Regas. Solder some good RCAs on that thing, get some deadening in the chassis, and you have yourself a nice little TT.
Don't know if you have one yet but if you are going to get a tracking force measuring device I would suggest a digital one. Just don't get ones advertised as tracking force measuring devices. Can pick up the identical units branded as digital scales for less than half the price. Got the identical digital scale version as my buddies brand name $150 DTF gauge online for $20. Even took them apart to see if they were the same components and they were identical down to the markings on the PCBs.
How do you like those Jordans? Have always been interested in them but have never picked up a pair for no particular reason.
I definitely prefer my standalone DAC to the one on my Pioneer HT Receiver.
The biggest difference I experienced in my record playing life was switching from cheap integrated phono preamps to well designed dedicated units. It is not a subtle difference, at least it wasn't for me. And since getting my EROS I have never been happier. As a matter of fact I like it more than my Japanese friends preamps that cost more than their BMWs.
And that d2 is a pretty nice sounding turntable. I would use it over a p300 myself. But I have always like the sound of the Technics direct drive tables, and have never been a huge fan of Regas. Solder some good RCAs on that thing, get some deadening in the chassis, and you have yourself a nice little TT.
Don't know if you have one yet but if you are going to get a tracking force measuring device I would suggest a digital one. Just don't get ones advertised as tracking force measuring devices. Can pick up the identical units branded as digital scales for less than half the price. Got the identical digital scale version as my buddies brand name $150 DTF gauge online for $20. Even took them apart to see if they were the same components and they were identical down to the markings on the PCBs.
How do you like those Jordans? Have always been interested in them but have never picked up a pair for no particular reason.
ssssly, thanks for your response. Yeah, I'm surprised my stand-alone tube DAC does not outshine the Onkyo pre/pro unit. I didn't even buy the pre/pro for that purpose.
My DAC experience aside I do expect a dedicated phono preamp should outperform the unit in the Onkyo. That is not the part of the pre/pro I think they would be putting the bucks. Living here in rural Vermont it's not easy to find a way I can try a unit for a simple comparison. But I'll be scheming a way if I can come up with one.
Thanks for tips on improving the D2. I'm going to implement them soon. I am surprised that this old unit works as well as it does. The overhange gauge and test record arrived today. I reset the cartridge using the gauge and my initial out-of-the-box impression is it sounds quite good. Using the cartridge alignment track on test record I hear a large null in mono mode where the L and R signals cancel. There is residual sound though. I have no experience with this and cannot tell how much null I should get. I can use my SPL meter to compare the speaker outputs or possibly use my o-scope. My simple, ear up close sanity check suggests I have the same residual null level at each speaker FWIW. Which seems like a good thing but it's not a quantitative assessment.
Is accurate setting of tracking force important for sonic quality or is it more a factor regarding record wear, skipping. etc.? I can imagine it might be valuable for optimizing the dynamic response of the needle though. I'm just floating the tonearm and setting to 0g and then using the vernier of the counter weight once calibrated to set the tracking force.
The Jordan speakers have been an interesting project. I first was had a pair of Dynaudio Audience 52's, then I replaced those with a used set of Silverline Sonatina I's. The jx92S are my first foray into full range drivers. I first built a set in cheap plywood cabinets my brother and I made. We used that to judge the design. After about two months of listening and moving the port to the back side (instead of the front) I decided the sound was good enough to commit some quality wood to real cabinet. I've been very pleased with the sound from these guys. I ended up blocking the rear port in the process of tuning them to my smallish room (about 14' X 11'). I like experimenting. These were a fun experiment that have now become my reference speakers.
My DAC experience aside I do expect a dedicated phono preamp should outperform the unit in the Onkyo. That is not the part of the pre/pro I think they would be putting the bucks. Living here in rural Vermont it's not easy to find a way I can try a unit for a simple comparison. But I'll be scheming a way if I can come up with one.
Thanks for tips on improving the D2. I'm going to implement them soon. I am surprised that this old unit works as well as it does. The overhange gauge and test record arrived today. I reset the cartridge using the gauge and my initial out-of-the-box impression is it sounds quite good. Using the cartridge alignment track on test record I hear a large null in mono mode where the L and R signals cancel. There is residual sound though. I have no experience with this and cannot tell how much null I should get. I can use my SPL meter to compare the speaker outputs or possibly use my o-scope. My simple, ear up close sanity check suggests I have the same residual null level at each speaker FWIW. Which seems like a good thing but it's not a quantitative assessment.
Is accurate setting of tracking force important for sonic quality or is it more a factor regarding record wear, skipping. etc.? I can imagine it might be valuable for optimizing the dynamic response of the needle though. I'm just floating the tonearm and setting to 0g and then using the vernier of the counter weight once calibrated to set the tracking force.
The Jordan speakers have been an interesting project. I first was had a pair of Dynaudio Audience 52's, then I replaced those with a used set of Silverline Sonatina I's. The jx92S are my first foray into full range drivers. I first built a set in cheap plywood cabinets my brother and I made. We used that to judge the design. After about two months of listening and moving the port to the back side (instead of the front) I decided the sound was good enough to commit some quality wood to real cabinet. I've been very pleased with the sound from these guys. I ended up blocking the rear port in the process of tuning them to my smallish room (about 14' X 11'). I like experimenting. These were a fun experiment that have now become my reference speakers.
Grainger49
New member
Tracking force is necessary to keep the stylus in touch with the groove. If you track too light then the stylus will not trace everything in the groove. There is a good reason to keep within the manufacturer's specified range. You might try adjusting the anti-skate. Since you mention a scope try a test groove and feed the preamped signal into the scope. Invert one channel and add the two traces together. Adjust the anti-skate for greatest null.
Yeah, what grainger said.
If you go to the manufacturer's website they should list the tracking force for the cart along with the other specs.
A digital jewelers scale can be had for less than $20 and will do the job perfectly. Just remember that you want to measure the tracking force at the level of the platter. I take my platter off and prop the scale up on a piece of butchers block that I planed to be the right thickness with the scale I have.
If you go to the manufacturer's website they should list the tracking force for the cart along with the other specs.
A digital jewelers scale can be had for less than $20 and will do the job perfectly. Just remember that you want to measure the tracking force at the level of the platter. I take my platter off and prop the scale up on a piece of butchers block that I planed to be the right thickness with the scale I have.
Grainger49
New member
ssssly said:
Excellent idea (my emphasis above), I wish I had thought of it.
Hi All,
I continue to have interesting times on this path of exploring why vinyl lovers love vinyl (and the related question: does it takes a lot more bucks to experience the inherent beauty of vinyl as compared to digital?).
When I had last posted I had just purchased a Shure M97 XE and was trying it out on my D2. I taught myself some basics of aligning the cartridge. It sounded a lot better than the old Pickering unit that was on the tonearm. After a lot of listening I concluded the sound was good but it did not challenge digital playback on my system. I put pursuit of this question away for a while and pondered the whole thing.
Over summer I made my annual pilgrimage to my origins of central New York Stave to visit family and friends. On this trip I managed a visit with Art Dudley who happens to have settled in my obscure home town. I
I continue to have interesting times on this path of exploring why vinyl lovers love vinyl (and the related question: does it takes a lot more bucks to experience the inherent beauty of vinyl as compared to digital?).
When I had last posted I had just purchased a Shure M97 XE and was trying it out on my D2. I taught myself some basics of aligning the cartridge. It sounded a lot better than the old Pickering unit that was on the tonearm. After a lot of listening I concluded the sound was good but it did not challenge digital playback on my system. I put pursuit of this question away for a while and pondered the whole thing.
Over summer I made my annual pilgrimage to my origins of central New York Stave to visit family and friends. On this trip I managed a visit with Art Dudley who happens to have settled in my obscure home town. I
You got to sit down with Art Dudley? How neat is that? I can't stand his politics, but man, that would still be really, really cool! Well done!
And yes, I think enjoying vinyl is indeed more expensive. You can do it cheaply but from my perspective you won't get the same sound for $400 out of vinyl that you do get out of digital. Actually, from my perspective, not by a long shot. But it seems to me that it can still be close to its potential for not a ton more money. Especially if you buy used gear or build kits. Phono Pre (Seduction), decent turntable (used), cleaning system (Nitty Gritty/ Gem Dandy), and a decent cartridge (do beware of used cartridges) and you don't have to spend oodles on any of those.
But hey! Reading your last post I am struck by how far you have come. I think you are close to being able to offer me suggestions, instead of vice versa. Actually maybe past.
And yes, I think enjoying vinyl is indeed more expensive. You can do it cheaply but from my perspective you won't get the same sound for $400 out of vinyl that you do get out of digital. Actually, from my perspective, not by a long shot. But it seems to me that it can still be close to its potential for not a ton more money. Especially if you buy used gear or build kits. Phono Pre (Seduction), decent turntable (used), cleaning system (Nitty Gritty/ Gem Dandy), and a decent cartridge (do beware of used cartridges) and you don't have to spend oodles on any of those.
But hey! Reading your last post I am struck by how far you have come. I think you are close to being able to offer me suggestions, instead of vice versa. Actually maybe past.
I had been curious at what cost can satisfying sound be had for vinyl vs. digital. I would agree vinyl is more expensive. My preconception had been that for vinyl the cost was so high as to be impractical unless one was already in possession of a huge vinyl collection (not my case). I now think that the practical equipment cost of good vinyl sound is not that extreme. I agree with your points how to approach that and I have some kit building experience already. A tube phone preamp in my future....? I hope one day.
But in analog it also seems quality in can be heard as quality out and the quality of the vinyl itself is important. Reliable good quality vinyl can easily be expensive or like panning for gold nuggets (which can be FUN).
Oh yes, a good cleaning system would be really nice.
But in analog it also seems quality in can be heard as quality out and the quality of the vinyl itself is important. Reliable good quality vinyl can easily be expensive or like panning for gold nuggets (which can be FUN).
Oh yes, a good cleaning system would be really nice.
Vinyl makes more sense dependent upon the kind of music you are into. In the business world it is fixed versus variable costs. Your fixed costs are less in digital and more in vinyl. But if you can spread those fixed costs over tons of 25 cent records than you are in better shape and can come out ahead. And that depends on the kind of music you are into. If you like classical music or maybe 70's rock, you are golden. I happen to be into 80's to present alternative, not so great. So not only is the equipment more expensive but so is the music. But vinyl, as I said a while ago, is also a fun thing to do and adds another dimension beyond the music. So for me it is still worth it, but that is a conclusion that I can see others not coming to.
Thoburn
New member
One of my favorites is Jennifer Warnes "The Well". I have listened to the CD so much that it is the one I take with me to audition equipment. 'The Well' was recently issued as a 'collectors' edition. It comes in a wood box with a nice emblem with the serial number on it. It also has a booklet about the album (I didn't know that the well is acutally a swimming hole in Texas). The 3 LP set in 45 rpm is down right fantastic. It was my Christmas present to myself as it was very expensive. I guess my point is that 'really good' vinyl is expensive, but if you love it you don't care. Beans and rice for dinner is a small price to pay for such a magnificent album.
Grainger49
New member
Multiple LP, 45 RPM sets are pretty high priced. I have 3 or 4, IIRC. Some albums mean that much to me. Fleetwood Mac's Rumours, Cowboy Junkies' Trinity Sessions and Dave Bruebeck Quartet's Time Out come to mind immediately. Maybe I only have 3.
These are worth the triple price that they charge for them. But you got to love the album first.
These are worth the triple price that they charge for them. But you got to love the album first.
Grainger49
New member
The German pressing is already getting scarce and the price has gone up $5 since I bought it. (Amazon best price $25 new) I'd say don't delay. Two thick vinyl LPs for $25 is a decent price.
Dude, I hear you. I am heavily into vinyl for new releases and I often wonder if it really isn't idiotic. Way, way more expensive for each issue that you buy along with the equipment needed to play it. I enjoy vinyl and the vinyl experience and it makes my hobby more enjoyable for me. But I sometimes wonder if the cost versus benefit for newly minted music on vinyl truly justifies the cost. Given the kind of music we are into I really do sit back and think that there is no way that vinyl is cost justified given that the difference between the CD and the record is often non-existent to my ears, other than the pops and clicks that CDs don't have. Oh well, I am addicted now. Get away before you are too!
Thoburn
New member
ramicio said:
I have not seen it reported much. Kind of like a social desease at a Catholic school. But, I find it is many times more expensive to get vinyl equipment that brings out the best in vinyl. My VPI Scout II setup cost 3 times what I paid for my Lynn Genki CD. And when I can scrape together the money I plan to get a Lyra Delos cartridge which all by itself cost as much as my Lynn CD player. Is it worth it? That is up to the individual. And, as it is true that some CDs are much better sounding than others, it is even more so with vinyl. YMMV. Just my opinion.
randy@matrixq.com
New member
I, like many, sold my dear collection of vinyl back in the early 90's. Lot's of great, early prog like Genesis, ELP, Moody Blues, Yes, and others. All very well cared for like priceless gems.
A few years ago, I purchased the cheapest turntable I could find (an old Marantz) just to use as a demo at school. I make a horn out of rolled paper and scotch tape a sewing needle to the small end. The kids are blown away that it really makes fairly nice, recognizable sound. It's a great into to analog vs. digital.
Since I had this thing, I took a listen to an old record (I think is was ELP's Tarkus) and despite being a cheap turntable with a worn out cartidge and an old record, it sounded really good. It was dynamica and engaging.
My current system is still relatively humble. I have a Pro-Ject Expression III with a Sumiko Blue Oyster cartridge. This feeds into a seduction, then foreplay, then SEX amps, then full-range horns. Here is my list of why vinyl still has a draw:
1. Some effort is required, which somehow gets you more connected with the experience. You have to unwrap, clean and then cue the thing very carefully. It is like a ritual. You have invested something into your 20 minute listening session.
2. Album covers and art are tangible, hold in your lap kinds of things that you can absorb while the music is playing.
3. Motion. There is this physical thing moving that causes the music to play. Mesmerizing.
4. Most important, it just sounds darn good. You're getting the real-deal analog impression of the original studio sound. You get the dynamics, the detail, and the smoothness that only vinyl will give you.
Yeah, it lacks ease of use. You can't set up a three hour play list and let it run. The "clicker" generation will go crazy that you can't jump to another song the very second you get bored. Instead, you are invited and encouraged to enjoy the album as a whole piece without interruption.
I'm an "album-centric" kind of person. I want that whole album experience, so vinyl works well for me. If you've grown up with an ipod in your hand, I don't think you will understand what you are missing.
A few years ago, I purchased the cheapest turntable I could find (an old Marantz) just to use as a demo at school. I make a horn out of rolled paper and scotch tape a sewing needle to the small end. The kids are blown away that it really makes fairly nice, recognizable sound. It's a great into to analog vs. digital.
Since I had this thing, I took a listen to an old record (I think is was ELP's Tarkus) and despite being a cheap turntable with a worn out cartidge and an old record, it sounded really good. It was dynamica and engaging.
My current system is still relatively humble. I have a Pro-Ject Expression III with a Sumiko Blue Oyster cartridge. This feeds into a seduction, then foreplay, then SEX amps, then full-range horns. Here is my list of why vinyl still has a draw:
1. Some effort is required, which somehow gets you more connected with the experience. You have to unwrap, clean and then cue the thing very carefully. It is like a ritual. You have invested something into your 20 minute listening session.
2. Album covers and art are tangible, hold in your lap kinds of things that you can absorb while the music is playing.
3. Motion. There is this physical thing moving that causes the music to play. Mesmerizing.
4. Most important, it just sounds darn good. You're getting the real-deal analog impression of the original studio sound. You get the dynamics, the detail, and the smoothness that only vinyl will give you.
Yeah, it lacks ease of use. You can't set up a three hour play list and let it run. The "clicker" generation will go crazy that you can't jump to another song the very second you get bored. Instead, you are invited and encouraged to enjoy the album as a whole piece without interruption.
I'm an "album-centric" kind of person. I want that whole album experience, so vinyl works well for me. If you've grown up with an ipod in your hand, I don't think you will understand what you are missing.
Grainger49
New member
porcupunctis said:
Interesting, the underline by me of course. I have thought about that myself. I listen to my LPs beginning to end. I love the album tracks. I have ordered an LP of The Doors Soft Parade. I had listened to the CD to see if I wanted it. I remembered when I would flip the LP, what was the first cut, last cut for each side. I consumed those LPs. I even listened to the weaker songs because it was an album of music.
Noskipallwd
New member
The vinyl vs. CD debate is another one of the many highly subjective topics in audio. I own reference level Marantz CD player, cost about 5 and half grand. Awesome CD player,plays all formats and has a reference level DAC onboard. I also own a number of turntables, the most recent a 500 dollar Project RM1.3. I bought from the neighbors kid who recently discovered vinyl and has since traded up. I was impressed with the sound quality from such a modest price TT, decided to buy it and play with it some. Added a big acrylic platter, modified the armboard to allow mounting of a Rega RB201 tonearm, I probably have $800 in it. It is now my bedroom system Project TT, Hagerman Cornet II phonostage and a Hagerman Castanet HP amp. Ok, back to the topic of subjectivity, to me the little Project sounds better than the Marantz CD Player. I know vinyl can be a PITA, and I guess I'm a little weird, but I get a kick out of cleaning records, taking the disc out of it's protective sleeve, brushing for dust, etc. I find the whole ritual it takes to play vinyl pleasing. I do hold out hope for Hi-res digital, down the road a bit it may give vinyl a run for it's money.
Cheers,
Shawn
Cheers,
Shawn
