I may have mentioned this back somewhere in this thread. But, I think alot of this goes back to initial point of reference ... your source when you first really started listening to music and put together your first "real" system. I set up a TT back in 2000 after a 10 or 11 year hiatus from vinyl. It just sounded "right" and most of my old LP's, all of which I kept, were "better" than their CD counterparts that I had accumulated. Same experience again when I put together the headphone system. When I added the TT to that system, it took me back again and it just sounded "right". These are modest TT's with vintage or vintage "sounding" carts. I would never say that they are technically "better" or technically more accurate than digital. They probably arent on a lot of fronts. But I listen to music on an emotional level, not a technical or analytical level. It has to sound good to me but after that it's really about how it makes me feel and how much I am enjoying what I am hearing, not whether Im missing that last bit of treble detail or whatever the case. Vinyl just sounds more "right" to me in general. I guess maybe thats why I never worried about considering myself an "audiophile" and rather just a "music lover". It doesnt meant that I dont enjoy CD and other digital, I do. Just that I will reach for the LP over the CD whenever I have some real listening time.
In search of why vinyl lovers love vinyl
- Thread starter ChrisM
- Start date
Thoburn
New member
Laudanum said:
My first 'date' was meeting my first girl friend's parents at her house. After the 'introductions' she and I sat in her parent's living room and listend to ELP's Lucky Man on a console system's TT. I think that was the summer of 1975. We are still happily married today. We still have that album.
Grainger49
New member
Do you still have the console?
randy@matrixq.com
New member
Dang, that was a great album. ELP's first one. If I remember, that was a Greg Lake (who had just left King Crimson) song that Keith added the organ parts to in order to blend it into the rest of the album. That album, along with Tarkus, Trilogy, and Brain Salad Surgery were mainstays of my listening cycle back in High School and still get lots of play today.
+1 for ELP.
What I find interesting is that the ELP recordings have such a huge dynamic range that those organ highs clip badly unless they are tamed. What I found works real well (talking digital now) is to upsample the redbook to 24/96 with SOx using a minimal phase (no pre-ring). Then apply a smart limiter for the clipping. Fantastic. Those screaming highs are clean! One example of how I like digital. Cant do that with vinyl.
What I find interesting is that the ELP recordings have such a huge dynamic range that those organ highs clip badly unless they are tamed. What I found works real well (talking digital now) is to upsample the redbook to 24/96 with SOx using a minimal phase (no pre-ring). Then apply a smart limiter for the clipping. Fantastic. Those screaming highs are clean! One example of how I like digital. Cant do that with vinyl.
Hi all,
I just want to report in after three years and six months since initially posting on this subject. The thread had taken a life of it's own and as someone only recently trying vinyl again some of it I could follow or appreciate.
A short update is in order however. I eventually heard it. I did hear what experienced vinyl lovers hear, what they know. There is a truth and beauty to vinyl but it took persistence to eventually experience.
Along the way I repaired my 300B amp replacing some failed/failing caps. That made a notible difference. My open baffle speaker project has been in a state of evolution for almost two years. It evolved into a 3-way design and last summer I realized I needed to redesign the cross-overs. That made a notable difference.
The Yamaha P300 TT I started with was horrible. Twenty years in an unconditioned garage attic killed what little fidelity there was to start with. The DD Technic's I was given was better after I put a Shure m97xe cartridge but it couldn't make a convincing impression.
I didn't realize how bad the phono stage in my Onkyo pre/pro was until I bought a Music Fidelity V-LPS. The vintage Empire 598 TT was pretty good after I put a DL-103 cartridge on it, then it was able to sound musical somewhat.
I was going to put this search to rest at that point and consider vinyl appreciation more a fetish than a valid listening option. In an email I wrote in September to my high power, multi-channel, solid state, digital-loving best friend from high school to tell him I was picking up my vinyl pursuit again. He replied "have fun with your anachronistic technology". I could imagine him shaking his head.
At end of September I was examining the alignment of my DL-103 and accidentally ruined it when to dropped onto the TT surface from the tonearm. That was supposed to be it. After all that time I had not had that experience why vinyl lovers love vinyl. I just ruined a decent cartridge. Time to put my curiosity to rest. Except I didn't.
I don't know if it was that I didn't want to admit defeat or I couldn't believe all these vinyl devotes out there continue to appreciate vinyl just because of a fetish or because of an emotionally attachment to their vinyl collections. I'm an engineer. Most of the time I expect things to make sense. So far I had not made sense of vinyl playback.
I decided to give it one more shot. Instead of buying another cartridge for the 598 I decided to buy a use VPI traveler TT that came with a Soundsmith Otello cartridge. It was a decent price and if I later sold it I would not lose my shirt. When I put it into my system it was then that it all came together and heard the music for the first time. I heard playback from vinyl that was musical, involving, and satisfying in a way I had never heard before. It took some time to get there but finally this past October I heard it. I'm still amazed. I'm starting to collect vinyl now.
My thanks to all for the encouragement and advice I received along the way.
Chris
I just want to report in after three years and six months since initially posting on this subject. The thread had taken a life of it's own and as someone only recently trying vinyl again some of it I could follow or appreciate.
A short update is in order however. I eventually heard it. I did hear what experienced vinyl lovers hear, what they know. There is a truth and beauty to vinyl but it took persistence to eventually experience.
Along the way I repaired my 300B amp replacing some failed/failing caps. That made a notible difference. My open baffle speaker project has been in a state of evolution for almost two years. It evolved into a 3-way design and last summer I realized I needed to redesign the cross-overs. That made a notable difference.
The Yamaha P300 TT I started with was horrible. Twenty years in an unconditioned garage attic killed what little fidelity there was to start with. The DD Technic's I was given was better after I put a Shure m97xe cartridge but it couldn't make a convincing impression.
I didn't realize how bad the phono stage in my Onkyo pre/pro was until I bought a Music Fidelity V-LPS. The vintage Empire 598 TT was pretty good after I put a DL-103 cartridge on it, then it was able to sound musical somewhat.
I was going to put this search to rest at that point and consider vinyl appreciation more a fetish than a valid listening option. In an email I wrote in September to my high power, multi-channel, solid state, digital-loving best friend from high school to tell him I was picking up my vinyl pursuit again. He replied "have fun with your anachronistic technology". I could imagine him shaking his head.
At end of September I was examining the alignment of my DL-103 and accidentally ruined it when to dropped onto the TT surface from the tonearm. That was supposed to be it. After all that time I had not had that experience why vinyl lovers love vinyl. I just ruined a decent cartridge. Time to put my curiosity to rest. Except I didn't.
I don't know if it was that I didn't want to admit defeat or I couldn't believe all these vinyl devotes out there continue to appreciate vinyl just because of a fetish or because of an emotionally attachment to their vinyl collections. I'm an engineer. Most of the time I expect things to make sense. So far I had not made sense of vinyl playback.
I decided to give it one more shot. Instead of buying another cartridge for the 598 I decided to buy a use VPI traveler TT that came with a Soundsmith Otello cartridge. It was a decent price and if I later sold it I would not lose my shirt. When I put it into my system it was then that it all came together and heard the music for the first time. I heard playback from vinyl that was musical, involving, and satisfying in a way I had never heard before. It took some time to get there but finally this past October I heard it. I'm still amazed. I'm starting to collect vinyl now.
My thanks to all for the encouragement and advice I received along the way.
Chris
galyons
New member
Good for you and your perseverance! The majority of folks are willing to except digital sound reproduction, because, IMO, their quality expectation bar has been set so low. Digital sound is fairly homogenous unless one is willing to spend really big bucks. The really big bucks gets you, not necessarily a better digital stage, but a well engineered analog output stage. This is what, to me, makes digital sound close to music. Plus the vast majority has a quality bench mark based on cheap, mass produced dac chips and op amps. Perfect sound forever, but no music!
Good choice on the VPI Traveler + Soundsmith combo. The SS moving iron cartridges are an exceptionally good value. I have a SS Voice that has only been bested by a Benz Ruby 2 and my DIY SUT with Hashimoto step up trannies. The fact that the Voice is very close and able to run directly into my phono stage is a testament to the high musical payoff per $$$$.
Thanks for the update. Enjoy!
Geary
Good choice on the VPI Traveler + Soundsmith combo. The SS moving iron cartridges are an exceptionally good value. I have a SS Voice that has only been bested by a Benz Ruby 2 and my DIY SUT with Hashimoto step up trannies. The fact that the Voice is very close and able to run directly into my phono stage is a testament to the high musical payoff per $$$$.
Thanks for the update. Enjoy!
Geary
There's plenty of math behind why this makes sense.ChrisM said:
I'd appreciate the opportunity to challenge the biases of my HS friend with some math. I've always assumed without a lab full of test equipment it would be too difficult to measure and quantify those parameters that are responsible for why something sounds musical on the equipment we are listening too.
Use the geometric restrictions of redbook to draw a 20khz sine wave. Now do the same for a 20khz square wave, and a 20khz sawtooth.
Grainger49
New member
Sampling theory was developed by Bell Labs for the transmission of voice and nothing else. It is not pertinent to audio.
Consider vinyl 100,000,000,000+++ samples per second. It doesn't compare to 44,100 samples per second.
This is from an Electrical Engineer whose wife worked for AT&T.
Consider vinyl 100,000,000,000+++ samples per second. It doesn't compare to 44,100 samples per second.
This is from an Electrical Engineer whose wife worked for AT&T.
This is a somewhat useful description on sampling theory for someone willing to wade though it: http://lavryengineering.com/pdfs/lavry-sampling-theory.pdf
As regards my good friend from high school who looks down upon my vinyl adventures (or misadventure as it has sometime turned out to be), using arguments to brow beat his digital biases I would also take a lawyerly path. To do that it isn't sufficient to show sampling leaves something on the table as compared to the original analog signal. I'd also like to address what analogy playback (be that vinyl) leaves on the table, and that I don't know how to do. In other words, it's also about what can be retrieved at the end of playback, whether or not it involved A to D and then D to A or always was A to A.
My own humble, trial and error, exploration of vinyl playback would make many, if not all vinyl enthusiasts raise their brows and roll their eyes. What I started exploring with would be considered junk by any audiophile just about. And I make no bones about that. That is what I started with. What I had wanted to do was to explore how high I needed to raise the bar in order for vinyl playback to reach a level of musicality that I could truly enjoy and would prefer over digital. I did eventually reach that, only recently, and I would still expect that many an audiophile might still look down upon my equipment.
I'm glad I can pause here for now and experience satisfaction for otherwise I suspect I was getting close to giving up. And in someways I would think rightfully so as I have no use for any technology, superior though it can be but only if it substantially exceeds my budget. And that I suppose is one of the advantages that digital has. Digital "junk" might sound better than vinyl "junk" at the bottom rungs of the ladder for quite a few undiscerning listeners of music even though my good friend just last year bought a Bryston digital pre/pro for a sum that exceeds my entire hifi system.
As regards my good friend from high school who looks down upon my vinyl adventures (or misadventure as it has sometime turned out to be), using arguments to brow beat his digital biases I would also take a lawyerly path. To do that it isn't sufficient to show sampling leaves something on the table as compared to the original analog signal. I'd also like to address what analogy playback (be that vinyl) leaves on the table, and that I don't know how to do. In other words, it's also about what can be retrieved at the end of playback, whether or not it involved A to D and then D to A or always was A to A.
My own humble, trial and error, exploration of vinyl playback would make many, if not all vinyl enthusiasts raise their brows and roll their eyes. What I started exploring with would be considered junk by any audiophile just about. And I make no bones about that. That is what I started with. What I had wanted to do was to explore how high I needed to raise the bar in order for vinyl playback to reach a level of musicality that I could truly enjoy and would prefer over digital. I did eventually reach that, only recently, and I would still expect that many an audiophile might still look down upon my equipment.
I'm glad I can pause here for now and experience satisfaction for otherwise I suspect I was getting close to giving up. And in someways I would think rightfully so as I have no use for any technology, superior though it can be but only if it substantially exceeds my budget. And that I suppose is one of the advantages that digital has. Digital "junk" might sound better than vinyl "junk" at the bottom rungs of the ladder for quite a few undiscerning listeners of music even though my good friend just last year bought a Bryston digital pre/pro for a sum that exceeds my entire hifi system.
madbrayniak
New member
This may have been mentioned but I have noticed that on average the vinyl version of albums have better dynamic range than other formats of the album on dr.loudness-war.com
That could also show why so many find LPs to sound better.
That could also show why so many find LPs to sound better.
galyons
New member
I think that this has more to do with mastering then media format. Much CD mastering is highly compressed to sound "better" in mobile applications. Vinyl RIAA is a compression/decompression format that when done well is very good, but often, especially in pop music, done poorly. Hard to make a generalization because many vinyl records were highly compressed. There is no shortage of examples of bad mastering in digital or analog! Don't even get me started on high priced, heavy weight vinyl mastered from the CD files.
Cheers,
Geary
Cheers,
Geary
galyons said:
No compression/decompression involved in RIAA equalization.
http://www.stereophile.com/features/cut_and_thrust_riaa_lp_equalization
Now there were a few LPs recorded with dbx noise suppression that was an compression/expansion process. LP encoding with dbx never got very popular and it died in the mid 1980s.
