Tube Rolling w/Crack

I agree except for #5. One can make an informed decision if one is methodical and takes the time to build a set of concepts that works for them. For example, after doing several rooms and learning what I can from some well informed friends I can go into a room with a pretty good idea of how I would treat it - kill early reflections, get a certain number of sones of absorption into the room, find the bass problems and work around them, etc. On the component level I can go into a design development with a pretty good idea of how I want the power supply and regulation done based upon having done it a lot of different ways and from those experiments refining the way that has floated to the top for my hearing.

Like anything else it's a matter of building experience. The buzz on the internet about mods is a great place to start, but tailoring the particular idea to your taste is where the real satisfaction enters the picture.
 
True.... Actually the sad truth is that EVERYTHING makes a difference. To what extent - is what is in question. The variables are daunting. It's unsolved, and will continue to be. All we can do is, like playing chess, make the best possible moves we can, given the information and skills etc. at our disposal. It's probably unwise to move your king out early, as it may be unwise spending too much money on component "X".
 
Aeolus Kratos said:
Nick Tam said:
If I told you that the most expensive combination of possible tubes that you could put into the Crack cost as much as the Crack kit itself, would you still want to buy it? Or do you just mean a "6080" tube and a "12AU7" specifically?

The Comprehensive 6080/6AS7 Rolling Guide:
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3453.0.html

Hi Nick,

Can you give me some impressions on the G.E.C Brown Base 6AS7G and the Western Electric 421A? I'm using Tung-sol 5998 (actually it's Chatham 2399) and I'm tending to upgrade to the 421A or G.E.C. What are the differences between them? And are they worth the premium between the 5998s and 421A/G.E.Cs?

And of course I'm using Speedballed Crack for this.

Best regards,

Kratos.

Hi Kratos

There is a NOS GEC 6AS7G going cheap on eBay international atm (auction with one day to go) - The best option, as the others have said, is to experiment and decide.  The beauty of tubes is that you can sell them on if they don't suit you.

Cheers
 
They'll probably go for 150+ by the end of the day.

Also the problem with buying tubes is that I find that they have lesser resell value if you bought them and you don't have a tester to affirm that they are worth what you bought them for... because recently I found out that a NOS NIB TS5998 that I had sitting around tests lower than the used TS5998 that I have in my Crack this whole time after spending some time and investing on a tube tester. And don't trust that tubes are NOS just because they're boxed... some time ago there was an auction for a bunch of Sylvania Gold Brand 6080 tubes. I've got 17 of these which are, all boxed and "NOS" as seller claims without any testing. Since I had no projects going on after finishing my Crack modding, I went onto buying and restoring a Hickok 799 and 2 B&K 667 testers. None of the tubes pegged 100% nominal Gm on the Hickok and 100+ emissions on the B&K. Morale of story? Tube sellers calibrate their testers so that their readings are higher OR tubes that have been sitting around for 20+ years simply could not have nominal GM OR my testers all suck.


w0lfd0g said:
Aeolus Kratos said:
Nick Tam said:
If I told you that the most expensive combination of possible tubes that you could put into the Crack cost as much as the Crack kit itself, would you still want to buy it? Or do you just mean a "6080" tube and a "12AU7" specifically?

The Comprehensive 6080/6AS7 Rolling Guide:
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3453.0.html

Hi Nick,

Can you give me some impressions on the G.E.C Brown Base 6AS7G and the Western Electric 421A? I'm using Tung-sol 5998 (actually it's Chatham 2399) and I'm tending to upgrade to the 421A or G.E.C. What are the differences between them? And are they worth the premium between the 5998s and 421A/G.E.Cs?

And of course I'm using Speedballed Crack for this.

Best regards,

Kratos.

Hi Kratos

There is a NOS GEC 6AS7G going cheap on eBay international atm (auction with one day to go) - The best option, as the others have said, is to experiment and decide.  The beauty of tubes is that you can sell them on if they don't suit you.

Cheers
 
^

Yep - A dead tube can still come with a box

Yep - It is possible for NOS tubes to have less than nominal new 100% emissions

Is this always the case?  No
 
OK, someone help me out. In January I bought one of those 6SN7 --> 12AU7 adapters on eBay. I got the one that appeared to be high-quality, with a nice ceramic socket and gold-plated pin holes. I think several others here have the same adapter. I made sure I got the 6.3V version. When it arrived, I tried it out with a couple of 6SN7s, but they all seemed noisy, although they were quiet in other amps. I chalked it up to some sort of bad "synergy" between the tubes and the Crack (w/ Speedball). I put the adapter to the side for a few months, until I got a couple more 6SN7s. Again, I pulled the adapter out and tried them with the Crack. Still noisy. Then I decided it must be the adapter. I contacted the seller, and although I was outside the complaint period, they gracefully sent me a new one at no charge (fast shipping from China, too, which is unusual). Tonight I try out the new adapter and...same problem.

Here is the exact situation: the noise is stronger in the left channel than the right. Much stronger. At low volume levels, the noise changes with the volume pot, but quickly hits maximum noise levels and stays constant after that. The tube plays music just fine - no cracking or popping or anything, just noise when I hit pause. My Crack is literally DEAD SILENT when I use it with my other input tubes, without an adapter. The noise doesn't change when I jiggle the RCA inputs. There shouldn't be any interference from other devices, as there aren't any nearby, and (again) the amp is quiet with other tubes. And the noise is the same no matter which 6SN7 tubes I use.

Anyone else have a similar experience? If so, how did you solve it? I know some people like 6SN7s with the Crack, but I can't imagine anyone would find this level of noise acceptable, so what I have must not be normal. Suggestions? What could be causing these problems?

Best regards,
Adam
 
w0lfd0g said:
Aeolus Kratos said:
Nick Tam said:
If I told you that the most expensive combination of possible tubes that you could put into the Crack cost as much as the Crack kit itself, would you still want to buy it? Or do you just mean a "6080" tube and a "12AU7" specifically?

The Comprehensive 6080/6AS7 Rolling Guide:
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3453.0.html

Hi Nick,

Can you give me some impressions on the G.E.C Brown Base 6AS7G and the Western Electric 421A? I'm using Tung-sol 5998 (actually it's Chatham 2399) and I'm tending to upgrade to the 421A or G.E.C. What are the differences between them? And are they worth the premium between the 5998s and 421A/G.E.Cs?

And of course I'm using Speedballed Crack for this.

Best regards,

Kratos.

Hi Kratos

There is a NOS GEC 6AS7G going cheap on eBay international atm (auction with one day to go) - The best option, as the others have said, is to experiment and decide.  The beauty of tubes is that you can sell them on if they don't suit you.

Cheers

Hi w0lfd0g,

Thanks for your suggestion, but I've just searched on Ebay and I could not find it. These GECs are all well over $170, or even > $300 for a piece. I found them somewhat ridiculous 'cause I'm not planning to buy just a power tube which costs nearly as much as my Speedballed Crack :)

Unfortunately, I'm not living in the USA, so it would be much more difficult for me to sell tubes if they don't suit me. And I have no chance to listen to a tube it before I buy it to make sure it is a good and quite tube :(

I have sometimes try to blind buy some stuff that I like, because I can not have a chance to try them: the Little Dot MK3 and the Darkvoice 336SE, but all of them disappointed me. But now I'm very happy with my latest blind-buy purchase. The Crack is simply one of the best amps I've heard with my beloved HD650, I've tried HD650 with various amps, including B22 4 boards and Burson Audio HA-160 :)

Best regards,
Kratos.
 
^

It went for $120

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-NIB-GEC-6AS7G-Round-Brown-Base-Audio-Tube-Valve-MOV-/221264941851?pt=AU_Electronics_Vintage_Electronics&hash=item33846b131b&nma=true&si=P4B3rkMXoHIMlrywmXQuPe858Is%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
 
Quick question for you guys. I just finished my crack the other day and let it burn in for about 8 hours with no problems. Went to use it the next day and noticed the power tube was not lighting up. It will come on if I wiggle it, but eventually fades back out after 5-10 seconds. I suspected maybe it was a problem with the pin prongs in the socket making contact, but they're pretty unremarkable and not really amenable to tightening. Just wanted to check if this could be a wonky tube? And if so can anyone float me a recommendation for a solid <100$ tube? I've been looking at the 6SN7+adapter but wasn't sure they work without a speedball.
 
Sounds like it is more likely a cold solder joint on the underside of the tube socket, such that you are only getting intermittent contact...

See my post above regarding my experience with using 6SN7 tubes via adapters. I've heard the same thing from at least two others. My advice is to stay away...
 
Finally!

I have spent a bucket load of money on tubes in search of that enigmatic "perfect sound".  I have now found the sound that is perfect for me (for now).

Thought that tube rolling was a waste of time and money in the Crack, but have stumbled upon a combination that works for me:

Driver tube: Mullard E80CC (Philips made)
Output tube: GEC 6AS7G Brown Base

Has anyone else tried this combination?

Only a matter of hours ago I described tube rolling as "Emperor's New Clothes" syndrome to a fellow forum member.  I have stuck with the combination noted above for perhaps fifty hours - Maybe I didn't give tubes long enough to burn in.  Maybe I am a victim of the "mass psychosis". 

In any case, I am hearing clarity, bass extension and speed without the sacrifice of warmth or treble roll off to a degree I have never heard before in this system or any other.   

The context?  BH Crack with Speed Ball, cap upgrades, 100K Blue Alps pot, driven by a Meier Audio Stage DAC playing FLAC files.  Headphones are Beyer T90s.

My Nirvana... until the urge to tinker strikes again. 
 
w0lfd0g said:
Finally!

I have spent a bucket load of money on tubes in search of that enigmatic "perfect sound".  I have now found the sound that is perfect for me (for now).

Thought that tube rolling was a waste of time and money in the Crack, but have stumbled upon a combination that works for me:

Driver tube: Mullard E80CC (Philips made)
Output tube: GEC 6AS7G Brown Base

Has anyone else tried this combination?

Only a matter of hours ago I described tube rolling as "Emperor's New Clothes" syndrome to a fellow forum member.  I have stuck with the combination noted above for perhaps fifty hours - Maybe I didn't give tubes long enough to burn in.  Maybe I am a victim of the "mass psychosis". 

In any case, I am hearing clarity, bass extension and speed without the sacrifice of warmth or treble roll off to a degree I have never heard before in this system or any other.   

The context?  BH Crack with Speed Ball, cap upgrades, 100K Blue Alps pot, driven by a Meier Audio Stage DAC playing FLAC files.  Headphones are Beyer T90s.

My Nirvana... until the urge to tinker strikes again.

Congrats! I have never heard the GECs, I'm currently using the Tungsram E80CC as my input tube and the Tung-sol 5998 for power tube and I really enjoyed it. Have you ever heard the 5998s? If so, can you give me some impressions on how they sound compared with the GECs? I'm planning to upgrade to the GEC 6AS7G but I'm not to sure if the differences are worth the premium or not :(

Best Regards,
Kratos.
 
Hi Kratos

Do you have the Speedball installed?  My experience in rolling with the Crack has only been + SB.

The 5998 was my second favourite output tube after the WE 421A (some would argue that the two are one and the same tube, but my samples varied in sound quality).  Unfortunately I sold the 5998 before I could do a side by side comparison with the GEC 6AS7G.  I don't trust my memory enough to be direct in my comparisons and I never tried it with the Mullard E80CC as a driver. 

That said, I would be very happy with the 5998 as an output tube.  Heck, I am happy with any tube in the Crack (+ SB). 

My previous listening experience was that the driver tube made no difference to sound quality but there was a subtle difference in sound produced using various output tubes.  I have since revised this as per the post you quoted.

However, let my experiences be a cautionary tale.  I have spent over $4,000.00 in tube rolling the Crack.  It took me this much money and an awful lot of time to determine that:

A. If you roll tubes in the Crack + SB, you will only get very subtle variations in sound quality
B. What works for one person may not necessarily work for another (variables such as personal preferences in sound quality and other components in the system come into play here)
C. Tube rolling can still be a lot of fun and is very addictive

I don't regret my experiences, but consider that money may have been better spent investing in some different headphones - "Rolling" headphones will get greater variation at less expense. 
 
w0lfd0g said:
Hi Kratos

Do you have the Speedball installed?  My experience in rolling with the Crack has only been + SB.

The 5998 was my second favourite output tube after the WE 421A (some would argue that the two are one and the same tube, but my samples varied in sound quality).  Unfortunately I sold the 5998 before I could do a side by side comparison with the GEC 6AS7G.  I don't trust my memory enough to be direct in my comparisons and I never tried it with the Mullard E80CC as a driver. 

That said, I would be very happy with the 5998 as an output tube.  Heck, I am happy with any tube in the Crack (+ SB). 

My previous listening experience was that the driver tube made no difference to sound quality but there was a subtle difference in sound produced using various output tubes.  I have since revised this as per the post you quoted.

However, let my experiences be a cautionary tale.  I have spent over $4,000.00 in tube rolling the Crack.  It took me this much money and an awful lot of time to determine that:

A. If you roll tubes in the Crack + SB, you will only get very subtle variations in sound quality
B. What works for one person may not necessarily work for another (variables such as personal preferences in sound quality and other components in the system come into play here)
C. Tube rolling can still be a lot of fun and is very addictive

I don't regret my experiences, but consider that money may have been better spent investing in some different headphones - "Rolling" headphones will get greater variation at less expense.

Hi Nathan,

Yes, I do have the Speedball installed on my Crack.

You said that the 5998 was your second favourite output tube after the WE 421A, so where is the GEC? You don't prefer it to the 5998 and 421A? :P

Thank you for your experience, I totally agree with you. I've rolled some 12AU7s and one E80CC so far, and I've noticed that the difference in sound quality when changing the input tubes is not as noticeable as changing the output tubes.

To be honest, I bought my Crack JUST for my beloved HD650. So I'm not planning to change headphones, partly because the Cracks are OTL amps, and they are not designed to drive low impedance headphone.

Best regards,
Kratos.

 
Sorry Kratos

Should have clarified that - the GEC 6AS7G is my favourite tube now and the WE 421A was my favourite tube previously.  BTW, I am using the straight base version of the GEC.

Cheers!
 
w0lfd0g said:
Sorry Kratos

Should have clarified that - the GEC 6AS7G is my favourite tube now and the WE 421A was my favourite tube previously.  BTW, I am using the straight base version of the GEC.

Cheers!
Hi Nathan,

Thanks for clarifying. I've read that there is a slight difference in sound quality between the round base and straight base version of the GECs.

Have a good day and enjoy the lovely music!
Kratos.
 
Kratos,

I've spent a fair amount of time with a GEC 6as7g straight brown base (driving HD800's) - and my view, at present, is that this tube is a bit over-hyped.  No doubt they are nice tubes, with a unique internal structure, but 5998's and frankly many 6080's also sound great in my crack (with speedball and other easy mods) and can be had for a lot less money. 

My GEC tube sounds like a very refined, premium, noise free 6080.  In terms of comparing sonics, through my setup w/ hd800's, 5998's sound slightly brighter, livelier and more holographic.  The GEC and 6080's are slightly more laid back and have a bit more mid-bass - particularly around 100hz where the hd800's have a significant spike in their impedance curve.  This all makes sense given that 5998's/7236's lower your output impedance (considered a good thing by many) but also raise the gain, which may or may not be a good thing in your setup.  (See also page 2 of http://www.pmillett.com/Wheatfield/rolling.pdf - similarly describing the sonic differences between these tubes.) 

At approximately equal volume, if I throw on bass heavy tracks (e.g. 2pac's "u can't see me"), I perceive that the bass hits harder and fuller if I'm running my GEC 6as7g (or, for that matter, my other 6080's), when compared to any of my handful of 5998's.  In the 6as7 thread on head-fi, folks with different amps and headphones have claimed just the opposite - that 5998's have more bass, which may be the case with the headphones they are using.  As I understand it, the impedance curve of the headphone is going to impact the effect of the change in output impedance.  Check out, for example, this thread on hd800's and high output impedance amps: http://www.changstar.com/index.php?topic=90.0. 

All in all, I certainly would not drop the 2 bills ebay sellers are currently charging for GEC tubes.  I paid $100 for mine, and I doubt I would be inclined to pay that much again.  I like the tube, but I would say that I find myself reaching for my 5998's just as often.  In fact, for the last couple of weeks, I've been experimenting with a number of dirt cheap JAN 6080's that have me second guessing whether it makes any sense at all to pay for "premium" 6as7 equivalents.  I paid $15 for a pair of Chatham's on ebay that are dead quiet, not even remotely microphonic, and which had me listening to fournier's rendition of bach's cello concertos until the wee hours the night before last.  If I manage to take my own good advice, I'll stop collecting surplus tubes and save my pennies for the bh dac. 

My favorite a-socket tube is still a tung sol 12bh7.
 
I have HD800s, two GEC brown-base (straight) 6AS7Gs, five 5998s, a Bendix 6080 with graphite plates, and any number of other 6AS7Gs and 6080s.

I pretty much agree with everything dubiousmike wrote below (except that I paid waaaaaaaaaay more than he did for my GEC 6AS7Gs). A few further notes:

1. I like my GEC because it is quiet, not because it sounds better.
2. The GECs are not the only quiet tubes out there. In particular, I find the 6080s of all brands and prices tend to be quite quiet.
3. I don't notice any differences in bass compared to my 5998s one way or the other, but I frankly haven't tried to compare that and don't plan to. Any differences much be tiny, so I'm not surprised that people fall on both sides of that fence.
4. I wouldn't bother replacing the output tube unless it is somehow broken. Every tube I've tried sounds good... Well, except for the first tube I got, which went kablooey the first time I fired up my Crack (the tube was bad, the amp was fine).
5. I'm using a Mullard 12BH7, but just about every driver tube I've tried has sounded good, too.

Tube rolling just doesn't seem like a wise use of money to me. If you want to tweak the sound of your rig, your money is much, much better spent on headphones (Sennheisers in particular are outstanding with the Crack).

Regards,
Adam
 
Back
Top