drowningcactis
New member
thanks paul
Tube Rolling w/Crack
- Thread starter Dr. Toobz
- Start date
W
w0lfd0g
Guest
I have spent much of the past 48 hours rolling tubes.
Output tube
Have tried the following:
1. Chatham 5998
2. Bendix 6080WB graphite
3. WE 421A
My favourite is the 421A and least favourite the Bendix
Driver tube
1. Mazda CIFTE 12AU7 1962
2. Brimar CV491 1971
3. Valvo ECC82
4. Tung Sol 12AU7A (1959 from memory) - Laddered grey plate
5. Telefunken ECC82 laddered grey plate
6. RCA 12AU7A clear top
7. Mullard ECC82 1962
8. Siemens laddered grey long plate
I can't hear a difference between the driver tubes, other than something very subtle, that is probably my imagination.
What's going on? I can think of a few options:
1. My ears are too "unlearned" to hear a difference - I would be surprised if this is the case as I have tube in the Lyr before and was able to hear a vast difference in such aspects as balance, clarity and sound stage as a result of rolling.
2. The way I have modified my Crack removes any effect from rolling driver tube - I don't know enough about circuit design to determine with this is correct or not. For what it's worth, i have the Speedball installed, Have 100 uF ES Clarity caps bypassed with 10 uF Mundorf Supreme as output caps, have replaced the final power cap with a 220 uF TC Clarity cap and have an Alps blue pot.
3. There is no difference in sound in this family of tubes in the Crack and the tube marketers have brainwashed us all
4. I didn't give the tubes enough time to burn in (which would suggest that in their embryonic state, all of the driver tubes sound the same until having reached adolescence)
Can someone please help? Do I persevere? Do I sell all my expensive driver tubes and keep a couple of RCA cleartops? Do i try other families? BTW - The amp sounds equally terrific with the various drivers.
FWIW - My tube rolling playlist consisted of Bach (portion of St Matthew Passion), Bjork, Mahler (portion of Kindertoten Lieder), Sarah McLachlan, Dire Straits, Rage Against the Machine and William Cornysh sung by the Tallis scholars (early sixteenth century sacred choral music).
Cheers!
Output tube
Have tried the following:
1. Chatham 5998
2. Bendix 6080WB graphite
3. WE 421A
My favourite is the 421A and least favourite the Bendix
Driver tube
1. Mazda CIFTE 12AU7 1962
2. Brimar CV491 1971
3. Valvo ECC82
4. Tung Sol 12AU7A (1959 from memory) - Laddered grey plate
5. Telefunken ECC82 laddered grey plate
6. RCA 12AU7A clear top
7. Mullard ECC82 1962
8. Siemens laddered grey long plate
I can't hear a difference between the driver tubes, other than something very subtle, that is probably my imagination.
What's going on? I can think of a few options:
1. My ears are too "unlearned" to hear a difference - I would be surprised if this is the case as I have tube in the Lyr before and was able to hear a vast difference in such aspects as balance, clarity and sound stage as a result of rolling.
2. The way I have modified my Crack removes any effect from rolling driver tube - I don't know enough about circuit design to determine with this is correct or not. For what it's worth, i have the Speedball installed, Have 100 uF ES Clarity caps bypassed with 10 uF Mundorf Supreme as output caps, have replaced the final power cap with a 220 uF TC Clarity cap and have an Alps blue pot.
3. There is no difference in sound in this family of tubes in the Crack and the tube marketers have brainwashed us all
4. I didn't give the tubes enough time to burn in (which would suggest that in their embryonic state, all of the driver tubes sound the same until having reached adolescence)
Can someone please help? Do I persevere? Do I sell all my expensive driver tubes and keep a couple of RCA cleartops? Do i try other families? BTW - The amp sounds equally terrific with the various drivers.
FWIW - My tube rolling playlist consisted of Bach (portion of St Matthew Passion), Bjork, Mahler (portion of Kindertoten Lieder), Sarah McLachlan, Dire Straits, Rage Against the Machine and William Cornysh sung by the Tallis scholars (early sixteenth century sacred choral music).
Cheers!
What sources are you feeding your Crack with?
W
w0lfd0g
Guest
FLAC into Meier Audio StageDAC via optical
Paul Joppa
Moderator
For what it's worth ...
The 12AT7 is not a very linear tube, in "normal" applications; the 5670 is actually much more lnear. When we were developing the Paramount upgrade/soft-start/5670 driver, Ed made some detailed distortion measurements - measuring each harmonic individually. With the C4S plate load, the distortion spectrum of the amp was almost the same, apparently dominated by the extremely linear 300B output tube. The C4S plate load (i.e Speedball in this case) appears to linearize both drivers to the extent that the power tube distortion spectrum dominates.
Linearity is of course not the only audible difference between tube, but it's a major part of the difference (IMHO of course). This could possibly explain the difficulty of identifying a difference between drivers with the Speedball installed.
The 12AT7 is not a very linear tube, in "normal" applications; the 5670 is actually much more lnear. When we were developing the Paramount upgrade/soft-start/5670 driver, Ed made some detailed distortion measurements - measuring each harmonic individually. With the C4S plate load, the distortion spectrum of the amp was almost the same, apparently dominated by the extremely linear 300B output tube. The C4S plate load (i.e Speedball in this case) appears to linearize both drivers to the extent that the power tube distortion spectrum dominates.
Linearity is of course not the only audible difference between tube, but it's a major part of the difference (IMHO of course). This could possibly explain the difficulty of identifying a difference between drivers with the Speedball installed.
W
w0lfd0g
Guest
Thanks Paul - Very helpful.
What other objective variables in the tube's physical makeup effect the listener's subjective audible perception apart from linearity? Interested to know - All part of the learning experience for me (am relatively new to audiophile pursuits).
Many thanks
Nathan
What other objective variables in the tube's physical makeup effect the listener's subjective audible perception apart from linearity? Interested to know - All part of the learning experience for me (am relatively new to audiophile pursuits).
Many thanks
Nathan
A
audiophileboss
Guest
What are the best most Hi fi 6080 and 12au7 tubes on the market and the cost?
Grainger49
New member
There is a thread of Tube Rolling In Crack. The longest thread on the forum.
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,663.0.html
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,663.0.html
Aaah, common guys... Some good feedback is in order here... I say. and this is my opinion, one should buy as many "flavors" as you can, and sample them, then form an opinion. Come back here, express such opinion and you will then get some "constructive" feedback. No short cuts. Got to do your homework. Its a "give and take". Right?
audiophileboss said:
If I told you that the most expensive combination of possible tubes that you could put into the Crack cost as much as the Crack kit itself, would you still want to buy it? Or do you just mean a "6080" tube and a "12AU7" specifically?
The Comprehensive 6080/6AS7 Rolling Guide:
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3453.0.html
Aeolus Kratos
New member
Nick Tam said:
Hi Nick,
Can you give me some impressions on the G.E.C Brown Base 6AS7G and the Western Electric 421A? I'm using Tung-sol 5998 (actually it's Chatham 2399) and I'm tending to upgrade to the 421A or G.E.C. What are the differences between them? And are they worth the premium between the 5998s and 421A/G.E.Cs?
And of course I'm using Speedballed Crack for this.
Best regards,
Kratos.
I have been reading and learning all I can about tubes for the past few days. It's really been a lot of fun. A little head-spinning too though - these threads have been very, very helpful and i formative! Ive been crosschecking other websites as I learn about another tube and now Ive got a few stores bookmarked and my eBay watchlist is filled with multiple pages.
Yesterday, on a whim, I went ahead and bought a couple of tubes for my yet-to-be-completed Crack. I got a "NIB NOS" CBS Hytron 6AS7G and a CBS 5814A - not because I think they will sound better than the stock Chatham 6080 and unmarked 12AU7, but because they look really nice and Im a little OCD and I like the idea of the matching brand tubes with red CBS logos.
I better get this amp finished or else I spend a bunch of money on other things I probably don't need...
Yesterday, on a whim, I went ahead and bought a couple of tubes for my yet-to-be-completed Crack. I got a "NIB NOS" CBS Hytron 6AS7G and a CBS 5814A - not because I think they will sound better than the stock Chatham 6080 and unmarked 12AU7, but because they look really nice and Im a little OCD and I like the idea of the matching brand tubes with red CBS logos.
I better get this amp finished or else I spend a bunch of money on other things I probably don't need...
If I can throw just a little sanity in here -
1) There is no universal best
2) Your best probably isn't my best
3) Price has nothing to do with whether you will like a tube or not. The only person who will always find the most expensive component to sound best simply substitutes a need to show off for having an ear. "Only" is a little misleading here, there are very many of these people. Just go to CES to see large flocks of them.
When the urge to buy the flavor of the week boutique item next strikes my suggestion is to stand back and look at why you decided to DIY. Wasn't it to learn enough to control yourself how your system sounds? Buy a bunch of cheap tubes and learn what kind of differences you can hear. Then form a judgment about what you like and don't care for, and focus your effort on getting there. Try other changes too, and see how much impact they have relative to tube changes. There might be other things that make a lot more difference. Unfortunately this doesn't apply to cans, but I think most of our customers would be better served by learning how to make their listening room sound better than by buying a new boutique capacitor. I also see a lot of guys with expensive headphones and rather mediocre sources. One needs to learn to balance all of these things rather than obsess about one.
1) There is no universal best
2) Your best probably isn't my best
3) Price has nothing to do with whether you will like a tube or not. The only person who will always find the most expensive component to sound best simply substitutes a need to show off for having an ear. "Only" is a little misleading here, there are very many of these people. Just go to CES to see large flocks of them.
When the urge to buy the flavor of the week boutique item next strikes my suggestion is to stand back and look at why you decided to DIY. Wasn't it to learn enough to control yourself how your system sounds? Buy a bunch of cheap tubes and learn what kind of differences you can hear. Then form a judgment about what you like and don't care for, and focus your effort on getting there. Try other changes too, and see how much impact they have relative to tube changes. There might be other things that make a lot more difference. Unfortunately this doesn't apply to cans, but I think most of our customers would be better served by learning how to make their listening room sound better than by buying a new boutique capacitor. I also see a lot of guys with expensive headphones and rather mediocre sources. One needs to learn to balance all of these things rather than obsess about one.
+100Doc B. said:
I often think that the current crazy prices of some FOTM tubes is a kin to the great Tulip Mania of 1637 .
Well...here is my take:
1. I find tube rolling has a surprisingly small effect on sound. I have a GEC 6AS7G brown base. In fact, I have two of them. Do I think they sound significantly different or better than the other 6AS7Gs, 6080s, 5998s, etc. that I've tried? Not really. They happen to be among the quietest tubes I've used, but I think that is just luck of the draw and specific to these particular tubes, not something that is inherent in the GEC design. I would expect there to be numerous "cheap" tubes that are just as quiet, if you can find the right one. And you can probably find any number of GEC 6AS7Gs that are very noisy. My basic position is this: I wouldn't bother "upgrading" the tubes in the Crack. Frankly, every tube I've tried has sounded excellent, and differences between tubes have been small to non-existent.
2. The drive to upgrade tubes and caps primarily stems from one source: insecurity. Something else might be better, and I'm worried that I don't have the best, so I might as well spend a bunch of money to be on the safe side. Feel free to disagree if you want, but I know that is how it works with me. It isn't that I feel a need to show off (my wife and daughters have zero interest in this stuff), it's just that I want to listen to the best possible sound. In the absence of first-hand knowledge about what sounds best, it is easiest to just spend money. That doesn't necessarily mean that what I wind up with ACTUALLY sounds the best, but it calms my anxiety. [Look, I'm wierd, OK? At least I know this about myself.]
3. I'm not yet convinced that upgrading the caps to film caps makes a huge difference, or that there are enormous differences between film caps. There may be, but the challenges in trying to rigorously test and identify those differences strike me as insurmountable. Caps may make a bigger difference in speaker crossovers, and maybe that is why we expect them to make a big difference, but I don't know if they actually do. Yet I still "upgrade" caps because I am a small, insecure and weak man.
4. This is a hobby. If upgrading caps or tubes or whatever floats your boat, then go for it. Notwithstanding my weak-willed ways, I don't see how silver wire is or could possible be better than copper wire, given that copper wire is usually thicker than silver wire, therefore more than compensating for the small advantage in silver's conductivity. But, if people want to blow money on silver wire, that's no skin off my back. I find installing film caps, and trying to figure out how to fit them, is kind of fun, so I do it.
5. It is virtually impossible to make an informed decision on how to change your system's sound. Suppose you find that your Crack is lacking in bass, or that the treble is a bit hot. Or the dynamics are lacking...whatever it is that you want to improve upon. Now, how will you go about figuring out which tube or cap to install? Pick any tube or cap, and to the extent that you can find any reviews at all, they will be reviews in someone else's system, using different components. Reviewer A will tell you that tube X has great bass punch. Reviewer B will tell you that the bass punch of tube X is sorely lacking when compared to tube Y. But Reviewer A has a separate review where he says tube Y has the worst bass he's ever heard. So, will tube X give you more or less bass? The same thing applies to caps. Reviews are all over the place, highly subjective, and basicaly worth a hill of beans. So you wind up buying something random, sticking it in, and seeing if your system still makes music that is vaguely acceptable.
6. If you want to make an immediate, obvious, objective and significant change to the sound of your system, then buy new headphones. I like to say that on a 10 point scale, the magnitude of the change in sound is 9 if changing your headphones, it is generally 2 when switching between amps using the same basic technology (e.g. among solid state amps, WOT tube amps, or OTL tube amps), it is maybe a 4 when switching between amps using different technology (e.g. switching between a solid state amp and an OTL amp), maybe a 1 when changing caps or tubes, and, I personally believe, something like a 0 when switching between DACs that cost more than $100, after equalizing for the strength of their output signal (I'm not a big believer in differences between DACs, but that didn't stop me from buying one for $1,000 that sounds just like all my other DACs...).
Best regards,
Adam
1. I find tube rolling has a surprisingly small effect on sound. I have a GEC 6AS7G brown base. In fact, I have two of them. Do I think they sound significantly different or better than the other 6AS7Gs, 6080s, 5998s, etc. that I've tried? Not really. They happen to be among the quietest tubes I've used, but I think that is just luck of the draw and specific to these particular tubes, not something that is inherent in the GEC design. I would expect there to be numerous "cheap" tubes that are just as quiet, if you can find the right one. And you can probably find any number of GEC 6AS7Gs that are very noisy. My basic position is this: I wouldn't bother "upgrading" the tubes in the Crack. Frankly, every tube I've tried has sounded excellent, and differences between tubes have been small to non-existent.
2. The drive to upgrade tubes and caps primarily stems from one source: insecurity. Something else might be better, and I'm worried that I don't have the best, so I might as well spend a bunch of money to be on the safe side. Feel free to disagree if you want, but I know that is how it works with me. It isn't that I feel a need to show off (my wife and daughters have zero interest in this stuff), it's just that I want to listen to the best possible sound. In the absence of first-hand knowledge about what sounds best, it is easiest to just spend money. That doesn't necessarily mean that what I wind up with ACTUALLY sounds the best, but it calms my anxiety. [Look, I'm wierd, OK? At least I know this about myself.]
3. I'm not yet convinced that upgrading the caps to film caps makes a huge difference, or that there are enormous differences between film caps. There may be, but the challenges in trying to rigorously test and identify those differences strike me as insurmountable. Caps may make a bigger difference in speaker crossovers, and maybe that is why we expect them to make a big difference, but I don't know if they actually do. Yet I still "upgrade" caps because I am a small, insecure and weak man.
4. This is a hobby. If upgrading caps or tubes or whatever floats your boat, then go for it. Notwithstanding my weak-willed ways, I don't see how silver wire is or could possible be better than copper wire, given that copper wire is usually thicker than silver wire, therefore more than compensating for the small advantage in silver's conductivity. But, if people want to blow money on silver wire, that's no skin off my back. I find installing film caps, and trying to figure out how to fit them, is kind of fun, so I do it.
5. It is virtually impossible to make an informed decision on how to change your system's sound. Suppose you find that your Crack is lacking in bass, or that the treble is a bit hot. Or the dynamics are lacking...whatever it is that you want to improve upon. Now, how will you go about figuring out which tube or cap to install? Pick any tube or cap, and to the extent that you can find any reviews at all, they will be reviews in someone else's system, using different components. Reviewer A will tell you that tube X has great bass punch. Reviewer B will tell you that the bass punch of tube X is sorely lacking when compared to tube Y. But Reviewer A has a separate review where he says tube Y has the worst bass he's ever heard. So, will tube X give you more or less bass? The same thing applies to caps. Reviews are all over the place, highly subjective, and basicaly worth a hill of beans. So you wind up buying something random, sticking it in, and seeing if your system still makes music that is vaguely acceptable.
6. If you want to make an immediate, obvious, objective and significant change to the sound of your system, then buy new headphones. I like to say that on a 10 point scale, the magnitude of the change in sound is 9 if changing your headphones, it is generally 2 when switching between amps using the same basic technology (e.g. among solid state amps, WOT tube amps, or OTL tube amps), it is maybe a 4 when switching between amps using different technology (e.g. switching between a solid state amp and an OTL amp), maybe a 1 when changing caps or tubes, and, I personally believe, something like a 0 when switching between DACs that cost more than $100, after equalizing for the strength of their output signal (I'm not a big believer in differences between DACs, but that didn't stop me from buying one for $1,000 that sounds just like all my other DACs...).
Best regards,
Adam
