New DAC - JDS Labs ODAC
- Thread starter John EH
- Start date
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4krow
Guest
grainger, given that a dac doesn't need huge amounts of power, what considerations would you have in building a power supply for it? Maybe better filtering, isolation?
Grainger49
New member
I corrected my above post. I didn't order the ODAC, but instead the one from Parts Express. It has arrived. I'm going to give it a try in place of my Ack! dAck! pretty soon.
I really like that Schiit doesn't take themselves too seriously.
Jason with Schiit is a good guy. I have exchanged some emails due to some issues. Not major, but with the amount of 'experimenting' that I do, my gear has to have some durability. I think I'll upgrade the Gungnir with the new USB card. I didnt buy it with USB because I knew it was not quite there at the time. Now it seems they have it figured out. Its only $150 and they will slap it in. Fix the other shit when they are at it.
As far as that $27 DAC from Parts Express. I got my second one the other day. I was able to do a good comparison between the Gungnir and that mini wonder at 24/192. I tell ya, if I had to, I would definitely be ok with listening to it until my Gungnir gets its makeover. Its not at all harsh. Just lacking a bit in 'drive'. So important quality of a high end DAC. Good power supply and good drive off the chips. That seems to be the newest trend. Multi DAC chips driving the output (ex. Metrum).
Here is the little Fiio if you missed it. Its a good way to get started to know what direction you want to go.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=230-120
As far as that $27 DAC from Parts Express. I got my second one the other day. I was able to do a good comparison between the Gungnir and that mini wonder at 24/192. I tell ya, if I had to, I would definitely be ok with listening to it until my Gungnir gets its makeover. Its not at all harsh. Just lacking a bit in 'drive'. So important quality of a high end DAC. Good power supply and good drive off the chips. That seems to be the newest trend. Multi DAC chips driving the output (ex. Metrum).
Here is the little Fiio if you missed it. Its a good way to get started to know what direction you want to go.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?partnumber=230-120
Grainger49
New member
Eric,
Did the Parts Express DAC need burn in? I put it in the system and the mids and highs sounded good but the bass lost all definition. It was boomy, fluffy, like a 70s speaker.
Did the Parts Express DAC need burn in? I put it in the system and the mids and highs sounded good but the bass lost all definition. It was boomy, fluffy, like a 70s speaker.
Thats interesting Granger. I did notice a bit of "lean-ness" in the bass when I was running two Fiio's, one in the front end and one for the subwoofer. I can usually tell the bass difference between pieces of kit because I have to adjust the variable crossover a bit on the sub to get the two to blend right. I did not notice a flabbyness, although my maggies do not do much below 60hz, and my sub is crossed over pretty low, so there isnt much room for that boomy stuff to show its head.
As far as extention and all the Fiio it seems to be quite adequate in the subwoofer section which is where I'm using it. It goes low and is tight when given a good strong signal. It seems to also sound better at 24/192 upsampled data. That muddyness that you describe, I have found, is due more to non-upsampled redbook. IMO all that tightens up with a good 24/192 upsample algorithm (I use JRiver). Of course that means you need to use a PC, so then you need to get a USB/SPDIF converter. Thats a great way to go IMO.
As far a burn in. I think it did sound better with time although I didnt really pay attention to it. Since it stays on all the time, that shouldn't take too long.
As far as extention and all the Fiio it seems to be quite adequate in the subwoofer section which is where I'm using it. It goes low and is tight when given a good strong signal. It seems to also sound better at 24/192 upsampled data. That muddyness that you describe, I have found, is due more to non-upsampled redbook. IMO all that tightens up with a good 24/192 upsample algorithm (I use JRiver). Of course that means you need to use a PC, so then you need to get a USB/SPDIF converter. Thats a great way to go IMO.
As far a burn in. I think it did sound better with time although I didnt really pay attention to it. Since it stays on all the time, that shouldn't take too long.
Grainger49
New member
Eric,
I just saw this.
I have a leg up here (I think?). I have to trim the sub woofer level, not crossover, for balance with the Orcas. It needed trimming, lowering the volume and it still was 1970's fluffy (not a bad thing back then!). I am crossing over higher than you, about 120 Hz.
Well, you know, different strokes... and we all have different systems, listening habits and ears/brains.
I just fed it from my Proceed PCD, ca. 1990. I don't have a higher resolution source. Maybe that would have made some difference? I can't get upsampled digital data out of my SACD, it upsamples.
Maybe it is the nature of my sub versus yours?
I just saw this.
I have a leg up here (I think?). I have to trim the sub woofer level, not crossover, for balance with the Orcas. It needed trimming, lowering the volume and it still was 1970's fluffy (not a bad thing back then!). I am crossing over higher than you, about 120 Hz.
Well, you know, different strokes... and we all have different systems, listening habits and ears/brains.
I just fed it from my Proceed PCD, ca. 1990. I don't have a higher resolution source. Maybe that would have made some difference? I can't get upsampled digital data out of my SACD, it upsamples.
Maybe it is the nature of my sub versus yours?
4
4krow
Guest
Grainger,
Speaking of 70's sound, I still remember listening to 'Fly like an Eagle' on whatever HK had to offer back then. Hadn't so much treble before that time that didn't suck. Something was still off, and it might have been the solid state sound that I didn't like, dunno. It is interesting how things change, especially what I listen to now compared to 30 years ago. BTW, still listening to the new SACD of Dire Straits from fleabay. Maybe THAT, too has changed from one recording to another. We sometimes get used to a certain sound.
Speaking of 70's sound, I still remember listening to 'Fly like an Eagle' on whatever HK had to offer back then. Hadn't so much treble before that time that didn't suck. Something was still off, and it might have been the solid state sound that I didn't like, dunno. It is interesting how things change, especially what I listen to now compared to 30 years ago. BTW, still listening to the new SACD of Dire Straits from fleabay. Maybe THAT, too has changed from one recording to another. We sometimes get used to a certain sound.
Grainger49 said:
Hey Granger - I would think that the Orcas make some pretty decent bass down to about 60-70hz or so. I think your sub is adding too much mud up high at 120hz. I would shoot for more like 40-50hz, try that with near field placement of the Orcas with the sub behind the listening spot.
I recently tightened my bass up quite a bit by using a pre-crossover (22uF cap with 180R resistor) in front of my Crown that has a built in variable crossover. I set the Crown to crossover at 50hz, the cap/resistor works out to about a 40hz filter. I also use a small t-amp to boost the signal from the Fiio DAC because the Crown is a pro amp this is designed for a higher input level. Sounds fantastic and I can tweak it with the adjustable crossover in the Crown. The cap/resistor crossover sits after the t-amp.
Grainger49
New member
Eric,
Yes, I think that I prefer the sound that I first heard an album to a cleaner today's sound. At one time I was going to get some old 70s speakers for vintage rock.
P.S. aren't you two brothers from another mother?
Just to add to the above discussion (well me and Granger actually) - I put the Fiio back in the front. Definately a different sound vs. the Schiit. I like it though. I had to adjust the crossover up on my Crown to 75hz to get a good blend. The Schiit makes lower bass for sure. To be expected. I like the highs and mids thought of the Fiio. Its very flat. Go to the Fiio website and look at the specs. I would be willing to bet that the Schiit is no where near flat...
4
4krow
Guest
earwaxxer
Granger, you call me Greg one more time! I swear! === hehe - no worries. I love Greg.
Hallucinating again I see....God what it must be like inside you head.....wait a minute we're kin of a sort, so now I'm a little scared(more than usual,,,of course this means a few more trips to the shrink next week).
Granger, you call me Greg one more time! I swear! === hehe - no worries. I love Greg.
Hallucinating again I see....God what it must be like inside you head.....wait a minute we're kin of a sort, so now I'm a little scared(more than usual,,,of course this means a few more trips to the shrink next week).
Grainger49
New member
After a day of RSLogix 5000 program documenting I hallucinate.
4
4krow
Guest
I was referring to EARIC
Yes Granger - we are brothers from different mothers. The point is, I can blame the booze on my craziness. Greg, on the other hand, has some other issues that we wont get into here....
Back to the topic of "flabby bass". Its a curious phenomena for us sub woofer folks because we can experience the flabbiness in isolation by turning down the main speakers where only the sub is operating. I used to think - "well you need the other frequencies for it to sound right" -The other frequencies are needed to complement and reinforce the bass. That I realized is crap. If the bass coming from the sub is muddy its not right. I had to resort to an additional crossover to get the job done. I knew I had the right stuff. Good woofer, good cabinet, enough good power. I think the crossovers in these amps suck. Too much of the higher frequencies get through. Just my opinion. I - interesting to have many fish to fry in this hobby. I personally enjoy having my front end speakers not being "full range" so I can tweak the low end on its own.
Back to the topic of "flabby bass". Its a curious phenomena for us sub woofer folks because we can experience the flabbiness in isolation by turning down the main speakers where only the sub is operating. I used to think - "well you need the other frequencies for it to sound right" -The other frequencies are needed to complement and reinforce the bass. That I realized is crap. If the bass coming from the sub is muddy its not right. I had to resort to an additional crossover to get the job done. I knew I had the right stuff. Good woofer, good cabinet, enough good power. I think the crossovers in these amps suck. Too much of the higher frequencies get through. Just my opinion. I - interesting to have many fish to fry in this hobby. I personally enjoy having my front end speakers not being "full range" so I can tweak the low end on its own.
Paul Joppa
Moderator
I agree about steep bass crossovers. If you look at the equal loudness contours you can see that the ear is much more sensitive to harmonics of bass frequencies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lindos1.svg
The usual 12dB/octave crossover barely flattens the curve - in other words, the distortion products above the crossover frequency are completely unattenuated as far as the ear is concerned. I feel that an absolute minimum of 24dB/octave is needed, in spite of the phase rotation concerns. I don't have any direct experience of sixth or eighth order crossovers; and some point the phase anomalies will outweigh the distortion advantages, but I can't say how much attenuation is too much.
Unfortunately, an adjustable crossover needs a potentiometer per 6dB/octave section, so most sub amps have just a 12dB/oct crossover with a dual pot - quad pots being very uncommon and hence expensive. I know that many of the subs that claim a 24dB/octave slope have half of it fixed-frequency and the other half adjustable - kind of a cheap trick IMHO.
I always wanted to make a Foreplay version with second-order crossovers (FET lowpass, tube highpass) specifically for the SEXy Speaker. It would take advantage of the sub amp's 12dB filter, plus the sealed-box 12dB highpass character, for a net 24dB/octave Linkwitz-Riley acoustical crossover. But I never got around to it - and now I like the BeePre too much to fuss with the Foreplay :^)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lindos1.svg
The usual 12dB/octave crossover barely flattens the curve - in other words, the distortion products above the crossover frequency are completely unattenuated as far as the ear is concerned. I feel that an absolute minimum of 24dB/octave is needed, in spite of the phase rotation concerns. I don't have any direct experience of sixth or eighth order crossovers; and some point the phase anomalies will outweigh the distortion advantages, but I can't say how much attenuation is too much.
Unfortunately, an adjustable crossover needs a potentiometer per 6dB/octave section, so most sub amps have just a 12dB/oct crossover with a dual pot - quad pots being very uncommon and hence expensive. I know that many of the subs that claim a 24dB/octave slope have half of it fixed-frequency and the other half adjustable - kind of a cheap trick IMHO.
I always wanted to make a Foreplay version with second-order crossovers (FET lowpass, tube highpass) specifically for the SEXy Speaker. It would take advantage of the sub amp's 12dB filter, plus the sealed-box 12dB highpass character, for a net 24dB/octave Linkwitz-Riley acoustical crossover. But I never got around to it - and now I like the BeePre too much to fuss with the Foreplay :^)
I've been messing around with some inexpensive dual gang pots, attempting to make a few quad deck crossover controls, but boy is it a PITA.
Doc sent me home with some adjustable active crossovers the other week, and there is a set of fancy gears behind the chassis plate to turn all the pots in unison...
Doc sent me home with some adjustable active crossovers the other week, and there is a set of fancy gears behind the chassis plate to turn all the pots in unison...
