In search of why vinyl lovers love vinyl

[ChrisM]

I've been listening to exclusively digital for decades now.  Currently steaming from HD through outboard DAC or steaming off internet, etc.  I lurk on so many forums reading about whatever that really can't imagine posting.  But I'm posting anyway this time.  See, one item on my bucket list is this: find out just why it is vinyl lovers are.... so in love with vinyl.  Mostly I just wonder about that.  But then I did something spontaneous (rare). 

A couple of months ago I took my old, 25 y.O. cheap Yamaha P-300 out of the garage attic and put it in my basement.  I don't know why it is I've held on to it.  I just left it there to tease me.  Then last weekend I set it up.  Amazingly my Onkyo PR-SC885 has a phono input.  I must be the only individual in the universe to use the phono section on this thing.  Anyway, I plugged the turntable audio output into the Onkyo, put one of the last four LP's I kept on the table, put the tone arm down and sound came out of the speakers. 

I didn't think I would hear anything really.  The thing has been in the attic of an unheated, unconditioned garage in Vermont for more than 20 years.  Nevertheless sound comes out.  And actually, it's not that horrible. 

I do not know a soul around here who even has a vinyl set up.  Well, maybe one person.  But that's it.  While walking around Burlington Vermont last evening (we're having our annual Discover Jazz Fest) I bought a couple of used jazz LP's at the one and only vinyl shop in this little town.  I started playing them when I got home and I'm playing them some more.  The sound is distinctly different than a digital version of the same tracks streamed off Rhapsody.  First report: I wouldn't give up listening to digital for the sound this thing makes.

I expect this set up can never reveal why it is that vinyl lovers are in love with vinyl.  I am assuming the two weakest links that limit the sound are the cartridge and the phono stage in the Onkyo.  The table is of course inferior but I doubt that is the weakest link.

I have a question to put out to the forum that is this.  Is a 25 Y.O, cartridge the likely weakest link?  Is there a reasonably priced cartridge that I could consider to replace it with that would fit on this arm and begin to reveal what it is that makes seemingly normal people love vinyl?  Should I give up? 

ChrisM
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[Mudhiker]

Oh.  I thought you meant vinyl like this: http://fetishrainwear.com/ (probably NSFW.)

 

[Paul Birkeland]

It sounds like the addiction is taking hold. 

It's hard to say what the weakest link is with the gear you have, but if you shop carefully and build what you can, a good vinyl setup can be had for very reasonable prices.  A used Project Debut and a used Seduction could probably be had for 500-600 bucks and provide a lot of enjoyment *and* provide a bit of a glimpse into the magic of vinyl. 

 

[ssssly]

I myself would get a used VPI HW-19 (MKII at least, MKIII or IV preferably). Can get a HW-19 jr for around $600 if you are patient. And very upgradeable.

A proper phono stage will make a world of difference. And make sure that your records are very clean and free of dust. Same for your stylus.

Next make sure your arm and cartridge are set up properly. This can be the most daunting task for those just getting into vinyl. The world of difference between the sound of a in-proper and proper setup is staggering.  Goole turntable setup, will get a bevy of info. Are several very good forums of nothing but vinyl nuts as well with tons of info on setup and cartridges and the such.

Warning, once you start you will not stop. So welcome to your newest addiction.

 

[ChrisM]

Thanks for all for your information and fashion suggestions.  Yes, my understanding is very rudimentary.  e.g. if the arm doesn skip or skate I would assume the arm is set up well enough.  Sounds like a good deal more than that.  I am trying to falll down this rabbit hole very slowly.  I need the sound will encourage me along the way. 

This my be reading too much into the replys so far. Two possible TT options have been suggested at reasonable entry level cost.  My take away is the P-300 I have exhumed from attic probably isn't up to the task of showing me the potential of vinyl.  I'm not surprised.  It didn't compel me to stay with vinyl either.

It makes sense to me that a dedicated phono stage probably is necessary to show promise.  I never expected the phono stage in the Onkyo I use for movie video/audio is where they spend all the bucks of the design   I'm actually amazed it even has a phono stage and suspect I might be one of three consumers who might have actually tried to use it.  My digial sytem is digital stream into AN DAC into a PP tube amp.  Speakers are home built MLTL using Jordan JX92. 

 

[Grainger49]

Chris,

Sounds to me like you do know why those who have it love vinyl.  You have heard it.

Come visit me in Knoxville and I can show you why I love vinyl.  But the key is that you get some music that moves you and play it.

I completely agree with you that the weakest links now are the cartridge (the stylus is probably worn and the suspension too soft) and the phono section.  Not that they are that weak.  But I do worry about the stylus damaging new acquisitions.  I strongly believe a vintage table arm combination can give 90% of the sound of a top notch table and arm.  The biggest differences can be had from a new cartridge, which after all makes the audio signal.

 

[corndog71]

If you really want to hear why then you need to find someone with a properly set up turntable and listen.  Check local hifi dealers.

What convinced me was hearing a stereo that was waaay beyond me.  But the sound was so much more life-like and full-bodied that it just absolutely trounced digital.

When I was able to I saved my money (and ate Ramen noodles for 2 months!) and bought the best table and cartridge I could afford at the time.  I got a Rega P25 and eventually settled on a Shure V15xMR.  (Sadly, both are now discontinued)

10 years later I'm still loving that combo.  I don't play it all of the time but when I do it's really fun.  Some music just doesn't sound right unless it's on vinyl.

 

[Paully]

Try a Shure M97XE.  A great little cartridge.  As Grainger often says, the cartridge is the most important part of the set-up, something I have come to believe.  The Shure is a standard entry level cartridge into the world of good sound and has an upgrade stylus option from a 3rd party if you get interested.  Next, when that really whets your appetite, buy a Seduction.  Then, when you are really, ready, get a vacuum record cleaner.  They make a massive, massive difference.

Away from the purely sound part of it, vinyl is fun.  It is retro, it is a blast to peruse and buy.  The record covers are neat to look at while you listen.  You can't buy more music cheaper, especially if you like classical at all.

 

[Grainger49]

Paul, poster Paully, has a Shure/Rega table & arm, an Eros, Foreplay and Paramounts.  He has reported that he has been enjoying his vinyl more than CDs lately, and so am I.  It may be something in the air or water.

Since he is headed here this weekend, we will gorge ourselves with vinyl this weekend.  We have 5 or 6 places to buy and then listen as late into the night as my wife will allow.

I might play a few CDs for things that I don't have on vinyl.  I'm not going to spend $120 for a vinyl version of Alison Krauss' Forget About It.

Edit: Just for yucks I checked the SACD, $150.  I'll be glad I have a CD I paid $9 delivered.

 

[ChrisM]

Grainger, many thanks for warning me about possibly damaging those records with that old cartridge on my P-300.  I was so amazed to hear anything after exhuming the TT that concern never occurred to me.  Your information and encouragement are helpful.

My friend who has a TT actually has the Project-Debut made similar recommendation.  He brought it to my house once a couple of years ago. He listens through an old 1960's Fisher stereo.  I really do not know another soul around here who is playing vinyl. But obviously that used record store I went to the other night must have others.  I may try lurking outside the entry and follow people... Haha.

Sounds like you guys have a great weekend planned.  Do not be surprised if I take you up on the offer to listen to your system one day should I arrange a trip in your direction.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[Grainger49]

Chris,

I'm glad you are getting into your vinyl rig.  There are a lot of fine, and extremely fine cartridges out there.  Jumping back to my audio sales days the most non-linear and therefore personal preference components out there are the transducers: Cartridges and Speakers.  So each is a matter of personal taste.  I'd say that spending $300 on a cartridge will bring you more joy than buying a new table for that price, again my personal opinion.  Many will disagree; but not here as this is the friendliest site you will find.

And where are you hiding (I read Vermont, Hmmmm...., this Southern boy knows nothing about Vermont)?  I'm in Knoxville now and have a selection of used vinyl shops.  (Hey, I thought I was in the boonies when I moved here, I'm from Atlanta {5 million people all driving on the Interstates at the same time})  I can recommend an email or link to sellers here who I strongly recommend if you want to get some "treasures" from your past on vinyl.  That is one thing that will nail down the vinyl experience for you.

I would gladly host any Bottlehead here for BBQ, brown liquor, music and tubes.  Feel free to PM me.  I'm an old fart, retired and enjoying my Bottlehead system.  Paul has become a close friend through the BHBB.

 

[Paul Birkeland]

 I'd say that spending $300 on a cartridge will bring you more joy than buying a new table for that price, again my personal opinion.  

If the table is off pitch enough, the cartridge wont help so much  

 

[Paully]

Don't be afraid to just browse and talk to people while you are doing it!  That comes across as a lot less creepy than standing out in front of the story and saying "hey dude, do you like vinyl"?

 

[ChrisM]

Paully: good point.  I'll try striking up a conversation in the shop first

Grainger: Well, I'm fairly in the boonies here.  I'm an engineer working for IBM at their Essex Junciton plant (outside Burlington).  I live in a rural community nearby.  Have deer, wild turkeys, fox, moose, and a lot of other wildelife that visit the backyard regularly.  There's a family of black bear down the road a few miles.  And I live on the paved section of our road! Retirement is possible next year or another year or two.

Population of the region is around 100K.  My town has maybe a population of 3000.  All the hifi stores have disappeared from here.  And if there's more than a few folks listening to music through tube equipment I'd be amazed.  But you never know. At least we have a pretty decent jazz fest.  Pretty good music scene for a small place.

 

[Paully]

Apparently there are some audiophiles running around in Burlington:

http://forums.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?lclub&1044679261&openflup&11&4

I think if you do a search in the Asylum and Google using area cities that are within driving distance you will locate some audio geeks to talk to.  I found this with a quick search using "Burlington VT Audio Society".  So a more methodical and dedicated search using more / different keywords and more area cities should get you there.  And vinyl lovers will certainly be in those groups.  Vinyl Destination (I assume that is the store) has some decent discussion in the Vinyl Asylum as a good place to buy.  Couldn't hurt to ask the store owner questions about vinyl, what he listens on, are there any dedicated listeners around who are friendly...

Anyway, good luck!

 

[ssssly]

I was not able to find much about the p300 but from what I could gather it is a pretty standard 80s automatic TT. I was trying to find some info on the arm for you, but was unable to come up with much. Some of those 80s TTs have proprietary cartridges on them so you have to buy replacement styluses direct from the manufacturer. Which in this case isn't a huge deal, they still sell them for about $30, but probably not the best sounding out there. I was unfortunately unable to find if the arm can be adjusted for tracing force and angle. Some of those auto tables are not.

The biggest issue with that era of decks is the heavy use of plastic in both the tables and arms. Makes things sound hollow and like someone is playing music at the end of a tunnel. Can be attenuated with proper damping and mass loading but almost impossible to get rid of.

And I think that once you start really looking you will be surprised at the amount of audio geeks in that area. If you were in Okinawa for some reason I would invite you over to listen to my rig (HW-19 MKV, BEZ, Eros, Paramour, Aiko Horns)but that would be a hell of a flight to listen to some records.

On a side not I would not suggest putting a $300 cart on that table. The entry level Shure and Denon carts sound good enough that most anybody will immediately see how good vinyl can sound for a fraction of the price. And until you get the hang of setting up an arm and cart you could very well destroy a stylus or two in the process (I know I did, but I can be pretty ham fisted sometimes).

If you send me some pics of the arm and table I can help you get the best out of what you have (wish google was of more help). And check out vinylengine. Lots of good info there.

 

[Grainger49]

I got a brain wave reading Paul's post.  If there is a vinyl shop there, there is a vinyl market.  Whoever buys there has a table!  There have to be closet vinyl-philes around.

 

[ChrisM]

Paully, a terriffic suggestion.  Thanks a ton.  I will follow up on this.  Yes, I am starved of interaction with other enthusists of hifi out here in the hinterland.  But as you have illustrated, there are some more of us.  I just have to do some research and poke around a bit to find them.

Chris

 

[ChrisM]

First, thanks to all who have replied, and given thought and advise.

I had a small detour recently when a *new in box* purchase of a MH 2.2 turned out not to be new, missing the manual, anti-skate counter weight, a scratched up cover, and debris on the TT felt.  I sent it back and the seller refunded in full.  Life is full of detours.

I decided to try a less all-or-nothing approach and ordered a Shure M97XE cartridge to see if I could make the playback more pleasing.  The long time it took to get hear gave me time to reseach how to align a cartridge on a TT, something I've never done before.  It finally came, I did my best for a firstime alignment and off I went listing to the 5 vinyl albums I have. 

The sound has improved a lot.  I can say genuinely say the music has become more involving.  I haven't done any A-B vinyl to digital yet but eventually will.  I don't know how much time to allow the cartridge to break in.  And I playing this thing though the built in phono preamp input of a low end pre-pro is not ideal.  Nevertheless, progress has been made.

I droped in on my neighbor last evening to get instructions for feeding their cats while on vacation.  He showed me a box of vinyl he's about to get rid of and a Technic's SL-D2 TT from thirty years ago.  I took the vinyl, most pop and rock stuff I never listen to anymore and the TT.  I don't know if the TT is any better than my similar vintage Yamaha P-300.  Right now I listening to an Eagle live album.  I in the way-back-machine currently at a point about my sophmore year in college.

 

[Paully]

Obviously you have a lot of things on your list you want to upgrade eventually.  The Shure cartridge was a good buy.  But when you are ready for the next level, the Jico replacement / upgrade styli for the Shure get a lot of really, really good reviews over on audioasylum so you don't have to buy a full on new cartridge, just upgrade the one you've got.  Just a suggestion so you have options.