Blumenstein Ultra Fi

[caffeinator]

Hi tdogzthmn,

I own a pair of Thrashers...they have mostly been doing yeoman service in my garage system, driven by a variety of amps/receivers such as Sansui 1000A, a variety of Dynaco combos and lately a Scott 233B integrated.

I love 'em, but can't comment about how they'd fare connected to SEX or other lower powered SET.

 

[Horatio]

I have a set of thrashers and regularly have them hooked up to my Stereomour MK1 and they sound great!

 

[tfrei]

I have a set of Orcas and a (now discontinued, I think) matching orca passive subwoofer with a separate matching amplifier.  I like the sound a lot.  I'm waiting for the upgraded wire and binding kits for both that Clark mentioned earlier. 

I'm looking for a general approach to tuning the subwoofer.  The plate amplifier has two main adjustments: 1) a crossover threshold adjustment and 2) a gain adjustment.  Currently I play around with both until I find something that sounds halfway decent. But I'm just really shooting in the dark.  Is there a more scientific (or logical ) method to going about this?

 

[Doc B]

Well, there is a certain sensitivity and frequency response that an Orca will have. And one could use the low frequency roll off of the Orca as a starting point for setting the lowpass filter on the sub amp. Clark certainly has good ideas on how the Orca and sub interact and can offer a great starting point.

But there are two things that make this more complex.

Firstly the low pass frequency hashmarks on most sub amps are only approximate. That can be gotten around by using a measurement mic and some measurement software. If you want higher precision that can help you see where the amp is really cutting off the highs.

Secondly, the acoustics of your room are very influential in the range where the speaker crosses over to the sub, enough so that an arbitrary level setting and even the low pass frequency setting that you might determine in an anechoic environment could be pretty useless in actual practice. Once again, a modest measurement setup can help you find room modes that might mess up the response and let you not only set levels and frequencies but also experiment with moving subs around to get the best response.

Of course even after doing that you gotta listen to the sucker and make the final decision about the sound. If you want a really simple way to take a first stab at this just run a frequency response sweep thru the system and listen for bass boom and bass suckouts from your listening position.

 

[tfrei]

I suspected that things would be at least a little complicated.  I'm looking at some android apps now at keuwl.com that might work with my phone.  I'm going to start playing around with this and maybe report back with what I find.  I imagine that a lot of bottlehead users are experimenting with subwoofers to supplement the bottom end with their low watt, full range speaker arrangements.

I really appreciate the effort that contributors on this forum ( including Doc B. ) make in responding to newbie questions like this. Thanks!

 

[tdogzthmn]

Part of my reasoning about jumping up to the Tritons vs the Orcas was to simply the overall system and see if I can get away from trying to integrate a sub.

My current room layout outs the sub in an awkward spot and Im also concious of the bass level since I live in an apartment.

My hope is that the Triton will be still able to fill in the low end witout the deep rumble that most easily transmitted through walls and floors.

 

[starkiller]

How much do the Orca's weigh by the way?

 

[fullheadofnothing]

According to Wikipedia, females weigh between 3000 and 4000kg and males weigh over 6000kg.

 

[Clark B.]

How much do the Orca's weigh by the way?

Its 8 lbs a piece.  16lbs a pair.

 

[tdogzthmn]

I wanted to share some initial experiences I've had with my new pair of Tritons being driven by my Stereomour 2a3.  I've played them with a mix of music and movies/tv since they are the centerpiece of my living room system.

Right from the start the Tritons threw out a larger image than the Orcas. The added sense of scale helps with the realism of the music to come across as if it were live.  The added body is also very apperant as the 8" drivers are engaging a lot more air than the little 3" Fostex.

I'm currently using Apple Music streamed through an Apple TV and Meridian Direct DAC for most music.  This allows for me to pull up all the music I could want and try with the Tritons.  So far they seem to handle everything with ease. 

It's also noticeable that they will need time to break in. By comparison the Orcs have a more delicate and refined sound when playing the right music.  The Orcas have an amazing level of finess which is still addicting in its own right.  In the meantime I'm happy to listen as the Tritons evolve with use.

On a side note I've been very impressed with the combo of Apple Music and the Meridian Direct DAC as a source.  Even though Apple Music is only streaming at 256kbs. It sounds remarkably clean and clear. Compared to my Vinyl system playing the same albums I don't feel like the digital version leaves me underwhelmed sonically.

 

[Clark B.]

New blog post!

New products!

New Bottlehead Amplifier Base designs, too!

http://www.blumensteinaudio.com/blumenblog/2016/3/23/raison-detre-clear-home-audio-is-the-hearth

 

[drewh1]

Hi Clark - I have been following the Bottlehead reviews of your products for years with great interest. I am looking at adding a separate (bedroom) system using my Stereomour 2a3 and am curious about the Blumensteins. Clearly you have a lot of great reviews and many Bottlehead fans love your products.

I guess the question I have has to do with efficiency. It used my Stereomour with 92db speakers and enjoyed it but don't feel I got the most out of it with 92db speakers. Your's are rated (conservatively) at 89 db. Is there something I am missing?  I would like to try them but have doubts that I will be happy with 2a3's driving less efficient speakers than what I currently have. Please don't misunderstand me, I am really wondering if there is a factor I am not aware of.

thanks,

 

[Clark B.]

Hi Drew,

Alot of people have good luck with the Orcas, Marlins and Tritons at low power because they are setting their expectations correctly in terms of the upper volume limitation that they need, and also because our speakers have many subtle design aspects that make them unexpectedly efficient and pleasing to listen to in practice with low powered tube amps, and as you pointed out, this performance is confirmed by the feedback of many of my clients.

One of the biggest reasons for this is that I have opted for a pleasant (bass oriented) tonal balance rather than the easier to zing efficiency figures that come from letting the high frequencies go wild - averaged out, shouty full rangers produce greater efficiency numbers on the cheap which is why many manufacturers do it.  But if you are diligently making bass out of a single cone, then the average efficiency number isn't as appealing on paper.

We are after practical, useful performance - torque versus horsepower.  And this factors into the specific ways that I design my enclosures - to work ideally beginning at low power levels.

Our enclosures, and the in house made damping materials we make for them are built for the efficient, well balanced bass reproduction out of a full range driver.  The midrange and high frequency qualities are well renown.  And there are many other factors to consider even beyond this blog post as well, but it is a good starting point:

http://www.blumensteinaudio.com/blumenblog/holographic-studio-monitors-the-marlin-3-full-range

There are other factors at play - like the idiosyncrasy of full range and subwoofer driver choices for their specific cone suspension "wake up" at low power levels. This is the way that I am stretching that specific driver's "torque curve" with my specific box tuning/power level dependent damping materials.

Hope that explanation helps!

-Clark

 

[drewh1]

Hi Clark. Thanks for taking g the time to respond. I am clearly "baffled" by all the possibilities so any and all information helps. Still love the look of those Cain and Cain's BTW

 

[tdogzthmn]

I would say even though the Orcas are less efficient than the Tritons they seem to play louder on the Stereomour.  I found myself having the volume set lower with the Orcas despite their lower efficiency.  I would be confident that the pairing would be more than enough for a bedroom system.

 

[drewh1]

Thanks for the comment. I am not concerned about vo!ume though. I would like to understand how efficiency effects other qualities like imaging, soundstange, instrument separation, clarity etc. Having finally completed my 300b, I am curious if the 2a3 would sound similar through highly efficient speakers. In other words, does the speaker efficiency limit the amp from reaching its full potential

 

[jrebman]

Ok, all you Triton owners -- especially those withthe sand-filled bases, tell me what you're hearing and what amp(s) you're using, as well as any source components. Also good if you can relate this to the Orcas )I have a later "classic" pair of natural bamboo with a single Orca passive sub (paper cone) and a pair of Birch DeLuxes with Dungeness Max subs.

I just ordered said Tritons (in Birch), but that means that eventually one of these other pairs has to find a new home (but not for a while yet (and they will all have the DOF enhancement kit installed.

Like Dogsdm, I'm trying to simplify and have a satisfying and full listening experience with more palpable dynamics, without the issues of integrating a sub or two. The rest of my system is now very simple and I want the speakers to fit into that general design idea.

BTW, the rest of the system consists of a 5.6w SE EL-84 amp, Metrum Musette DAC and an Auralic Aries Mini server/streamer, all being fed by an Equitech balanced power unit (balanced power and totally galvanically isolated from the grid.

Most things are still new and just starting to break-in, and I don't have the Tritons yet, just fishing for some feedback on what I might expect.

Thanks,

Jim

 

[tdogzthmn]

Hi Jim,

My Tritons are still breaking in but overall they provide a more fleshed out sound compared to the Orcas.  The Orcas I had were well broken in and provided an more detail in the upper mids and highs.  I used my NAD D3020 (30wpc) and Stereomour 3.5wpc) to drive both speakers and used a Meridian Director DAC or my Technics 1210 as a source.  The lows on the Tritons are great so far and really help to add "meat" to the music and lessen the desire for a subwoofer.  Having said that, I think you will want to keep your Dungeness subs in the system to really dig deep.

Despite the higher efficiency of the Triton, I sense the Tritons want more power than can be provided by the Stereomour.  This is not to say the amp was clipping or the sound distorted but I just get the sense the Triton would be happier with more juice.  I felt the NAD does a better job with more demanding music and movies although it does lack the refinement and magic I get from the 2a3.  Surprisingly the Orcas seem to play louder on the Stereomour than the Tritons but this might be due to their more forward presentation and extended frequency response.

I'm looking into Hybrid amps hoping to see if I can get more of the power offered by a Class-D output with a tube pre-amp section.  Both speakers compliment eachother and I felt the sonic signature did not overlap to the degree I expected.  My plan is to give the Tritons a good "thrashing" by throwing a party or two so I can push them harder.  Living in an apartment makes it difficult to crank the volume up I have relatives that live in the country where noise pollution will not be a problem.  I'll post some more impressions in a few weeks when I've gotten more hours on the Tritons.

Best,
Thomas

 

[jrebman]

Hi Thomas,

Well, my experience with el84s is that they sound much bigger than their power rating would suggest. Have you thought about the PS Audio Sprout?

Well, I'm not getting rid of the subs but I likely won't be. using them with the Tritons --  one of my goals is to keep things simple and clean. I also have a fairly small room and sit near-field. I've had another similar speaker that went down to the same lower frequency and sounded just fine to me. I think break-in is the key, and the sand mount stands could also play a role.

Thanks for the inf -- we'll just have to see what happens.

-- Jim

 

[Clark B.]

Hi Thomas,

The one thing I might suggest to upgrade in in your system would be the speaker wires - to our newer Waterline Cables "Mainsheet" speaker cable which matches the internal wire in the Tritons (versus your older Orcas). 

The Orcas you had, being so well broken in and without any stuffing materials (that are found in our Depth of Field kit), might sound a little brighter in a "hot swap" situation in a direct comparison to a new Triton.  With the Depth of Field modifications to the models I released back in January, I was focusing on attaining greater evenness across the frequencies and this does take a tad bit of the brightness away from the newer Orcas. 

I feel like the Tritons do take long and steady break in before they are truly happy being run off something under 5-8 watts.  However, I regularly demonstrate my Tritons with a 2wpc SEX amp to clients without undue playback level issues from that low of power.  The drivers do take some time to warm up every session, and as they are larger cones, they do take longer to break in than the little 3" cones in the Orcas.  When the 8" cone warms up it "clicks in" with the supertweeter and works its best.

Driving the Tritons with even higher power than that like hybrid, digital, and etc. does yield greater dynamics and scale - and that ability is the main benefit of our bigger model. 

Tritons love my 300B Paramounts and other SET amps as well.

All fun to play with.

-Clark

Hi Jim,

My Tritons are still breaking in but overall they provide a more fleshed out sound compared to the Orcas.  The Orcas I had were well broken in and provided an more detail in the upper mids and highs.  I used my NAD D3020 (30wpc) and Stereomour 3.5wpc) to drive both speakers and used a Meridian Director DAC or my Technics 1210 as a source.  The lows on the Tritons are great so far and really help to add "meat" to the music and lessen the desire for a subwoofer.  Having said that, I think you will want to keep your Dungeness subs in the system to really dig deep.

Despite the higher efficiency of the Triton, I sense the Tritons want more power than can be provided by the Stereomour.  This is not to say the amp was clipping or the sound distorted but I just get the sense the Triton would be happier with more juice.  I felt the NAD does a better job with more demanding music and movies although it does lack the refinement and magic I get from the 2a3.  Surprisingly the Orcas seem to play louder on the Stereomour than the Tritons but this might be due to their more forward presentation and extended frequency response.

I'm looking into Hybrid amps hoping to see if I can get more of the power offered by a Class-D output with a tube pre-amp section.  Both speakers compliment eachother and I felt the sonic signature did not overlap to the degree I expected.  My plan is to give the Tritons a good "thrashing" by throwing a party or two so I can push them harder.  Living in an apartment makes it difficult to crank the volume up I have relatives that live in the country where noise pollution will not be a problem.  I'll post some more impressions in a few weeks when I've gotten more hours on the Tritons.

Best,
Thomas