Tube Rolling w/Crack

[sinbonders]

Hey all,

I've been loving my Crack (pre Speedball), which came with a Sylvania 6080WB, but got a bug to try out some different tubes. So I got a Tung Sol 6080WA  for $40 based on the reviews here:
https://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/bottlehead-crack.120/page-3
The description of Sylvania vs Tung Sol made me wonder what I could be missing.
However, after trying both tubes, I'm not convinced the Tung Sol is much better. In fact, the Sylvania 6080WB almost seems more open and spacious. I also got a Westinghouse 6AS7GA for cheap just as something different to try. Both the Sylvania and Tung Sol seem better than the Westinghouse, but I almost prefer the stock Sylvania, maybe just because I'm used to it... Am I missing something? Am I crazy, or is the Sylvania 6080WB not as bad as the above review makes it seem? Are the Tung Sol 6080's overrated? Did I get an exceptional Sylvania?

Also, after I install the Speedball, do you think the preference of tubes will change? Is it worth swapping out the HP-branded 12au7? Maybe I should just quit since I don't know really what I'm looking for, mostly just FOMO.

Thanks for any advice!

 

[Paul Birkeland]

You should post a photo of the 6080s you have.  Sometimes a tube that has a brand printed on it will actually be manufactured by a different brand.

 

[Doc B]

Am I missing something?

Only that what you like is all that matters. Plug in the one you like best and don't worry about what someone else says. Once you get past the worry over what an interweb reviewer is trying to steer you towards this hobby gets much more rewarding.

 

[sinbonders]

Just for reference, here are my tubes.
Overall, after playing with them, I'm pretty impressed with the stock Sylvania tube.

 

[watonwak]

Did i just get a great deal? i won an ebay auction that included what i think are 2 Philips branded Mullard 6080's along with 2 Thomson 6080WA for under £10 delivered
Do these look legit? the mullards seem to go for £100-£200 each online

All arrived well and sound great! I love the Phillips/Mullard 6080's, it pairs really well with my Sylvania 6SN7GTB Coin base.

I think i got a great deal due to a badly worded ebay listing

 

[sinbonders]

I think i got a great deal due to a badly worded ebay listing

This is my fantasy!

 

[charnich]

I'm wondering if someone well versed in describing tonal qualities can help. I don't have a huge amount of experience with A/B testing. I recently went ahead and pulled the trigger a TS 5998 for my crack+ speedball. I am able to hear that the sound is different than the stock Raytheon 6080 WC but it's a little confusing to me. I've read so much about how great the 5988's are in the crack and I realize that everyone has their own preferences in tubes, but I'm finding the 6080 more enjoyable to listen to. I feel the 6080 is more musical and certain instrument voicing seems to be richer and almost more forward sounding. With the 5998 I feel like the sound is overall more "flat" across different instrument voice ranges. I do feel like the bass is a little more tight and noticeable with the 5998 but it doesn't seem as musical to me. The 5998 seems a little boring in comparison.  I almost feel like the 5998 is more fatiguing for me and I feel the need to keep the volume down more as it's almost too much for my brain. It's not really painful per se. But I find with the 6080 I enjoy it at a louder volume (not just a higher knob setting but a higher actual volume) it's more inviting to listen to at a higher volume. BTW I'm not someone who listens to "loud" music. I typically like to listen to it just loud enough to hear the full range of frequencies. As an example I typically would listen to my crack at knob setting at about a 3-4 out of 10.

Can someone put into the appropriate "audiophile terminology" what it is I am trying to verbalize? Would it be that the the 5998 are more "linear"? Also from those who have tube rolled a lot with the crack, what are the qualities of the 5998 that people find to be desirable about it. I'm hoping that by understanding what is traditionally desirable about it I can perhaps develop an appreciation for it. Don't get me wrong, I'll ultimately listen to whichever one I enjoy the most but I'd like to educate myself in the process. I hope this is clear as I'm not really good at the moment verbalizing what I'm hearing.

Many thanks

 

[Chris H]

An interesting post as I used to struggle with the same questions - almost as if I'm missing something because I can't hear what others can.
Knowing what others are describing may aid appreciation but will it make you like it more?

Once you get past obvious inadequacies, e.g. lacking detail, it all becomes very subjective.
In the end, if you prefer one over the other that's really all that matters.

For what it's worth I thought you gave a good description of what you can hear.
I still struggle to put into words and will often rely on the foot-tap test.
If my foot starts tapping involuntarily then I know I am hearing something I like, even if I cannot objectively describe what it is that is different.

I will be interested to see other responses though, since a common understanding of terminology would be useful.

 

[charnich]

I posted the following originally in the tube rolling thread but didn't get many replies so I decided to start a dedicated thread:

I'm wondering if someone well versed in describing tonal qualities can help. I don't have a huge amount of experience with A/B testing. I recently went ahead and pulled the trigger a TS 5998 for my crack+ speedball. I am able to hear that the sound is different than the stock Raytheon 6080 WC but it's a little confusing to me. I've read so much about how great the 5988's are in the crack and I realize that everyone has their own preferences in tubes, but I'm finding the 6080 more enjoyable to listen to. I feel the 6080 is more musical and certain instrument voicing seems to be richer and almost more forward sounding. With the 5998 I feel like the sound is overall more "flat" across different instrument voice ranges. I do feel like the bass is a little more tight and noticeable with the 5998 but it doesn't seem as musical to me. The 5998 seems a little boring in comparison.  I almost feel like the 5998 is more fatiguing for me and I feel the need to keep the volume down more as it's almost too much for my brain. It's not really painful per se. But I find with the 6080 I enjoy it at a louder volume (not just a higher knob setting but a higher actual volume) it's more inviting to listen to at a higher volume. BTW I'm not someone who listens to "loud" music. I typically like to listen to it just loud enough to hear the full range of frequencies. As an example I typically would listen to my crack at knob setting at about a 3-4 out of 10.

Can someone put into the appropriate "audiophile terminology" what it is I am trying to verbalize? Would it be that the the 5998 are more "linear"? Also from those who have tube rolled a lot with the crack, what are the qualities of the 5998 that people find to be desirable about it. I'm hoping that by understanding what is traditionally desirable about it I can perhaps develop an appreciation for it. Don't get me wrong, I'll ultimately listen to whichever one I enjoy the most but I'd like to educate myself in the process. I hope this is clear as I'm not really good at the moment verbalizing what I'm hearing.

FWIW I enjoy music with varied instruments, strings, piano, brass, lighter electronica, and smooth vocals. I don't listen to much pop, hard rock, metal, or rap.

Many thanks

 

[Paul Birkeland]

I posted the following originally in the tube rolling thread but didn't get many replies so I decided to start a dedicated thread

This absolutely belongs on the tube rolling thread, so I moved it back.

 

[charnich]

OK sounds good.

Thanks

 

[Mucker]

I believe the Crack circuit is outstanding and handles all of the tubes I've thrown at it with aplomb!

Literally, a $20 set of tubes (driver + power!) has left me totally amazed. Such an awesome kit!

Would be really fun to have a blind testing meetup, with plenty of tubes and plenty of beer of course. I'd bet there would be very low cost tubes that would surprise.

 

[Paul Birkeland]

I've read so much about how great the 5988's are in the crack and I realize that everyone has their own preferences in tubes, but I'm finding the 6080 more enjoyable to listen to.

Sometimes what we read on the internet can enlarge our expectations well beyond what reality will provide.

When people ask me open ended questions like these, I always suggest the least expensive experimenting that's possible to arrive at a satisfactory answer.  If you can buy and listen to a 5998, then sell it for about what you paid for it and conclude that it's not for you, that's all the better!  Personally I have a bunch of 5998s and graphite 6080s and I don't use any of them.

 

[charnich]

Paul, I'm not quite ready to sell the 5998 and I'm not ready to conclude its not for me....yet. I want to listen to it at least 100 hours or so and then go back to the other tube and see what my impressions are at that point. Don't get me wrong, it sounds wonderful either way, I'm just trying to get a feel for what it is that people like so much about the 5998s (for those who think its the bees' knees at least). Plus I think I got a fair deal for the tube at 80 bucks so I may keep it for a spare for when tubes are no longer available on the used market.

A part of me thinks that people like the 5998 because it "looks cool" which is does. ;-)

Which tubes are your favorites for the crack, Paul?

 

[johnsonad]

The Crack/C2A circuit has been a lot of fun for me. I initially thought I would want to roll tubes in it and found that the stock tubes (nothing fancy) sound outstanding and I've not rolled a thing. Every tube is a new experience and you'll be surprised by what you like compared to others. In the end it comes down to what makes you happy.

 

[larcenasb]

...I'm just trying to get a feel for what it is that people like so much about the 5998s (for those who think its the bees' knees at least).

I agree with your impressions--I find my 6AS7G tubes are also "more musical" compared to a 5998. When I turn up the volume...the 6AS7G remains full-sounding and enveloping, while the 5998 sounds brighter and sometimes harsh. I'm listening with 600 Ohm AKG K240 Sextetts.

When I use my brother's Sennheiser HD 600 however... the whole synergy shifts to something more desirable. Compared to my K240, the Sennheiser sounds laid-back, and as Doc speculated I might think, "just sounds dull." I'm talking about the infamous veil of the Sennheisers. As you can imagine, brightness and a little harshness would sound totally different with the Senns, making them sound a little more lively and dynamic. As the Senns + 5998 are popular choices with the Crack, IMO I think that synergy is what many people like so much. Hope this helps.

 

[charnich]

Thanks for your input Larcenasb. I actually use the Senn HD6xx with the the 5998 and still get that bit of harshness. I'll admit though that since I posted I've tried a 12BH7A for my input tube and I have to say I like it a lot better in combination with the 5998 (vs the 12AU7A).Overall the combination is very impressive sounding but now I need to go back and compare to the 6080 which I haven't yet heard with the 12BH7A. I still think the 5998 can be a little harsh with the new input tube but I certainly like it better than with the 12AU7A. One thing's to be said though, the TS 5998 looks absolutely killer... Regardless, with any combination of tubes I've tried yet, all of them sound great with the crack....

 

[larcenasb]

Yeah, I guess we should state the whole audio chain because it all contributes of course haha.

With the Senn HD 600: If I use the S.M.S.L Sanskrit 10th annv. DAC, then the 5998 can sound harsh. If I use my Sylvania grey-plate 12AU7, then the 5998 can sound harsh. But before the Speedball upgrade, the 5998 always sounded controlled and never harsh.

Here's the audio chain for a dynamic sound that isn't harsh for me: AudioQuest DragonFly v1.0 -> Bottlehead Crack + Speedball w/ Tung-Sol 5998 & RCA 6SN7GT (w/ adapter) -> Senn HD 600

 

[Larpy]

I have been immersed in tube audio for 25 years and in that time (mostly early on) I've bought dozens and dozens of NOS and OS tubes.  I've learned that fetishizing any particular tube is pointless.  Given that we all hear differently and have different systems, no one tube is going to be guaranteed to sound either great or horrible.  It all just depends.

Yes, objectively there are better built tubes that will last longer than lesser built tubes, but what's the point if you don't like the way they sound to your ears in the equipment you have? 

It's fun to tube roll, but with prices getting so crazy for the vintage stuff, I don't think it makes sense to spend more than, say, $50-$75 for the kinds of tubes we're talking about here (6AS7s, 6080s, 5998s, 6SN7s, 12AU7s). Chances are slim you'll hear a sonic difference commensurate with the cost.  You might get lucky and buy just the right vintage tube for your sonic taste (and system synergy), but the odds are against it.  I have boxes and boxes of vintage tubes that, although they're fine tubes, they didn't quite give me the sound I was looking for.

It's worth remembering that posts about vintage tubes on the internet from 20 years ago are from a whole other era:  tube audio was still a very small niche market in audio (at least in the U.S.), and the availability of desirable NOS tubes was huge compared to now.  It was so easy to buy tubes then that are now nearly extinct, and often for as little as $10-$20 a piece.  It was cheap to tube roll all sorts of tubes from the 1940s and 1950s.

But that era is gone, and so when we read a 20 year old post on some audio forum that insists we just have to hear tube "X," keep in mind it was written during a time when it was relatively cheap and easy to do so.  That window closed fast (by the mid aughts, as I recall).

Being more specific, vintage Tung Sol 5998s are a well made tube.  5998s have lower output impedance than a 6AS7 or a 6080, so with headphones like many Sennheisers, they sound brighter and faster.  If your system sounds a little dull and sluggish, a 5998 might be just the thing.  But there's no sonic magic lurking inside its glass.

I listen through Sennheiser HD800s (which, granted, are brighter than the 6xx series), and I'm perfectly content listening to a (relatively) inexpensive '60s-era RCA 6AS7 as a cathode follower.  I also have such storied tubes as a TS 5998, a TS 7236, and a Mullard CV2984, but none sound "better" to my ears through my system than the plain Jane RCAs. 

 

[Paul Birkeland]

I've learned that fetishizing any particular tube is pointless. 

You'll have to let us know how long that took!

I also have such storied tubes as a TS 5998, a TS 7236, and a Mullard CV2984, but none sound "better" to my ears through my system than the plain Jane RCAs.

You're reminding me that I should be selling my 5998s and CV2984s...