Tube Rolling w/Crack

So many tubes, so little time... ...that is so right.

I've used/enjoyed my stock Crack+Speedball enough, seen enough, rolled enough tubes through it to have a good handle on the tube families (I've been using the 12AU7 forever and ever and I'm getting conversant in the 6080/6AS7G family) and what I enjoy in the Crack/Massdrop Senn HD6XX combo. Lots of stuff/tube complements/combos sound very good. I love the SEDs, both the 6H13S and the 6H5S, and especially the latter. The SEDs are well made, test well, look nice, sound great - oh, and they're quite inexpensive, even with shipping included in the cost. Both have been outstanding to my ears, paired with a Japanese TEN Kobe Kogyo 12AU7 cleartop. All of the few and different TEN 12AU7s I have also sound great. I used to love the SED 6550C.

The Sylvania 6080WA and Tung Sol 6080WA have also been fabulous.
 
On the subject of tube rolling. A recommendation for cheap tubes that sound really good!
You can often find a pair of these for 10€, only need an adapter.

Myself on another forum said:
Time for another tube family to try in Crack!
The Dull Emitter Transmitter 20 or DET20.
Also known as CV6, E1148, 7193, CV3601, 2C22, VR135, CV1135, NR80, CV2920, VT252 and by some other names. It had many!

Back in the 1900’/10’s, the first tubes were developed (Fleming diode -> R triode). You had bright emitters, those were the early tubes that could function as a light bulb because of the pure Tungsten filaments. Later-on came the dull emitters, you’ve guessed it, not so much of a light source and far more economic for use with a battery, as was common in the 1920’s.

This Dull Emitter name since stuck a bit in England. So when de E1148 prototype was released in the USA for UHF use, the British had to get their counterpart. These tubes go by various names and have one thing in common, both anode and grid are connected via top caps. Starting out as the 6J5 (a 12AU7 predecessor), i guess this family was developed with the prevention of oscillations at high frequencies in mind. This tube (named military Common Valve 6) played a major role in military equipement during WWII. DET20 was the name given to civil versions of this tube, sold by the Marconi company, but picked from both the GEC as Mullard production line.

Being so close to the 6J5 (6SN7/12AU7), these make for a perfect fit in our beloved OTL headphone amps. Maybe even with some extra special “sparkling highs”  (Because VHF tube, haha, bad joke...    .... ).

https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb17858503/p5pb17858503.jpg
Top: E1148 (Hytron) and 7193 (Ken Rad)
Bottom: CV6 (Mitcham) and CV6 (Hammersmith)

The E1148 then is a one of the first in this family and was build in the USA and Hytron branded tube. It has it’s inners mounted horizontally. It’s British and other American relatives show a normal vertical construction. Here’s an example from a 1942 group of this type. As you see, these all show a pan getter. Later versions show a different mica construction over that getter of no getter? I might have to break one to find out exactly.

In the CV6 type, tubes can be found from various factories and most of them were Mullards made in Mitcham (D) or Blackburn (A). My only Marconi tube looks exactly the same as the CV6’s from the Mullard line. I can’t spot any difference in internal structure. The plates of these area smaller then 6J5’s and charcoaled black for better heat radiating performance being welded together.

The 7193 is the American sibling, with the same construction/look as a 6J5 metal base (the normal ribbed plates), but with the same top-caps. They are fysically smaller compared to the EU counterparts and E1148 predecessors. In 7193’s there’s 2 versions i’ve seen. The Ken-rad, distinguischable via the top mica spacer from the National Union version (round mica).

When using these, please take extra care for the correct position of both the anode cap and grid cap!! Don’t ever swap them! Mishaps possibly harm the tube and your amplifier.

Always look up the datasheet before putting them in your amp to check both the parameters and connections. Then put the guide-pin correctly in the socket. After that you place the top caps according to the datasheet. Before power-on, visually double-check if the datasheet is correct for your tube (just look trough the glass and follow each connection).

Because i couldn’t find any datasheet on the E1148 (only the mention of it in the CV6 datasheet), i played around with it a bit longer before amplifier testing. For this, "used" specimens from 1942-1944 era were tested. All tests were done with 250V anode, -5,5v grid and show +- 8,2Kohm plate resistance, amplification factor 21, mutual conductance 2,5-3 ma/V with 13-15ma output. So close enough to CV6 (and same pinout) for the use of that same datasheet (+-NOS). So, these tubes are interchangeable and very usable as driver in Crack!

https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb17858501/p5pb17858501.jpg
Picture: Test setup E1148.

CV6 datasheet: http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/cv6.pdf
On page 3, mounting position is specified.
Note that the E1148’s and CV6’s in my collection all share the same mounting positions.

7193 datasheet:  http://www.r-type.org/pdfs/2c22.pdf
On page 2, mounting position is specified.
Note the differences!


Oh. Sound!
These are very, very, very good sounding tubes. These add layers and layers of texture to the music bringing out soooooo many details. Wow, just wow. I’ve got tons of tubes to choose from for my Crack, and these enter the top-10 out of nowhere. This makes me want to explore more odd-ball UHF over-constructed tubes with the right specs.

I’ve tried 6 or 7 pairs by now in my Crack and none have been microphonic or problematic with interference due to long wires. All test strong and perform even better!

For the money this family is impossible to beat! You can find a pair for 25€ or less and i found a “made in China” adapter for 25€ that is performing perfectly.

It’s more worthwhile buying a pair of these with an adapter vs any 6SN7/12AU7 that goes for the same price. In the states the 7193 Ken Rad would be the one i’d recommend. In Europe the CV6’s can be found at bigger retailers, for very convenient prices (a few Euro/pound each) but you have to ask for supply (as nobody uses them). My personal favorite is the Mitcham factory CV6.

https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb17858502/p5pb17858502.jpg
Picture: Kings of the bunch, the Mitcham CV6. Used with Bendix 6080 driving AKG K340 electret/dynamic headphones. Yes, i still need to rework the adapter and rotate it 90 degrees.

All-in-all these tubes sound so good that i’m planning on researching further developments of the UHF group for a next, completely nuts, tube adventure!
 
It's funny, the 2C22 used to be that really inexpensive tube that nobody wanted, but now I see them for more than a comparable old stock 6SN7!
 
A newbie question regarding the 12AU7 heater voltage in Crack and its adapters:

12AU7 sounds like a 12V heater voltage tube to me, so why a 6V heater 6SN7 can be used in place of 12AU7?

Instead of 6SN7 I think the 12V heater 12SN7 should be the correct one to replace 12AU7, same 12V heater voltage, and so we can use a 12SN7-to-12AU7 adapter, am I correct?

 
Cool, I was looking at some docs on 12AU7, and find 12AU7 indeed can run 6.3V in parallel and 12.6V in series.

From the pinout chart I find pin 4 and pin 5 are used as heater input, and pin 9 is ground for both heaters.

So in Crack we have 6.3V on pin 4 and another 6.3V on pin 5, and pin 9 is connected to ground, is that correct?
 
And when we use a 6SN7-to-12AU7 adapter for Crack, does the adapter combine pin 4 and pin 5 on 12AU7 to a single input and link it to the pin 7 or pin 8 on 6SN7, or does it pick only one input from either pin 4 or pin 5 on 12AU7 and link it to the pin 7 or pin 8 on 6SN7?
 
cddc said:
From the pinout chart I find pin 4 and pin 5 are used as heater input, and pin 9 is ground for both heaters.
Pin 4 to pin 9 is one 6V heater.  Pin 5 to pin 9 is another 6V heater.

cddc said:
So in Crack we have 6.3V on pin 4 and another 6.3V on pin 5, and pin 9 is connected to ground, is that correct?
Ground isn't really part of this conversation.  This is just a series (12V) or parallel (6V) arrangement of two heaters.  Pins 4 and 5 are connected together to put the two 6V heaters in parallel, then 6V AC is applied between pin 9 and pins 4/5.

-PB
 
cddc said:
does the adapter combine pin 4 and pin 5 on 12AU7 to a single input and link it to the pin 7 or pin 8 on 6SN7, or does it pick only one input from either pin 4 or pin 5 on 12AU7 and link it to the pin 7 or pin 8 on 6SN7?
It could go either way.
 
Great, thank you very much for explaining the pins on 12AU7, PB!  :)

Now I can understand why a 6V 6SN7 can work in a 12AU7 socket (sounds like 12V from its name, but actually it can be either 6V or 12V depending on wiring).
 
Hello You all !!!


Definitely very happy to be able to join this group after years and years of readings but most of all being able to own "the beast"!!!!

As a Euro listener it wasn't that easy to get it( 10 years ....), but now i proudly have a crack with SB and lots of good mods. Of course my cans are HD 650 with an Alo green cable (possibility of switching the terminations) .i did add an high End power cable as a Audiquest NRG 5 and Qued silver RCA cable.
I received my unit with 6080 WC Phillips EGC and GE 12 AU7, but after few first listening sessions, i became very disappointed because of the lack of .........everything  :( >:(. No magical appears ......flat; dull; mushy , thin , so i confess i was devastated!!! :'(
So i managed to start tube replacement or rolling and had the chance ( i primarily thought..) to find Nos Telefunken set for input and outpout tubes .
The sound was completely different but very harsh and hard to listen to..............very mid centric even with a bettered sound stage , but with no life ....lean sound with nice details and vocals but no foot tapping; not engaging after ( to 10 minutes i stated to get tired of the sound !!!!    wow what did i miss?
so i tried to split the combos  and made a session with Telefunken 12 Au7 and Phillips 6080 , things calm down a bit , but lack of impact and seems a little bit foggy.......!

So i'm asking you ; the "gods of the Crack" to help me out a bit and try to find the right combos with all the experimentations you all guys made the last ten or fifteen years !!!!!!
Knowing i had the chance to find a RARE set of Nib Nos Telefunken (west germany from the 50's) found with luck by one of my friend in a closet in the garage (  8) ) ; owned by his grand pa ; i went thru tons of pages on different forums, but cant find the top pairing with these 2;
i really like the 12au 7 precision and details and would like to try to find an outpout tube that can handle it ;something maybe  more organic, rugged  ; but with a good impact on bass slam, speed  and as refined ........ i guess i m a fool ???
or try to find a perfect matching input tube to the telefunken 6080 but as it is a rare and sough after tube , i couldn't find anyone or read anything on some one who tried a special combo on our beloved Crack .

Thank you so much for your help and support and hope it's not a too big pain in the a...to understand  my poor English !!!!
thanks to the community .
Zarno
 
I would recommend reheating all of the solder joints in the amp before you go much further.  What you're describing is how I would describe an amp with a few cold joints.  The music will still come out, but it certainly doesn't sound right!
 
The standard HD650 cable is fine and makes a good standard reference. I bought my HD600 used and it came with a decidedly expensive East European cable as an extra. It has loads of definition but is balanced very much towards the high frequencies. Reading that the 650 cable was a good value upgrade from the 600 one I bought one and have been pleased with the result. Your green cable might be giving you a similar altered frequency result to my fancy one so best for you to use the 650 one for tube rolling at the moment IMO. Mine came with a RCA 6080 which I like and I'm using it with a 4003 which I just happened to have. A good combo for me. I also have 2 versions of the 6AS7 that sound "OK" but both have issues, the Sylvania one is ultra microphonic and the other one Brimar(?) tends to "sing" a bit one channel. You can only hear that when there is no input signal so not that significant until you wear the cans for a while with nothing playing. Food for thought?
PB's comment posted while I was writing this. Good advice.
 
Zarno said:
... i proudly have a crack with SB and lots of good mods.

Hi Zarno - a couple of questions:

(1) Did you build it yourself or buy it already built?

(2) What mods, in addition to the SB, does your Crack have?

cheers, Derek
 
@ Zarno.

Follow PB's advice first. Even with GE's it should sound right. Or these were bad tubes, could be.

Finding real Telefunken 6080's will be extremely difficult. It is a very popular fake, be very careful. And the bass is lacking i.m.e.. I'd put my money on a GEC 6080 instead (found for +-50€ from the UK).

Here's a post of myself on another forum:

Here's a post of myself on another forum said:
Tonight i've had a first few hours with a Telefunken 6080WA output tube. A tube i previously thought off as non-existent with only fakes on the market.
Bought it by chance, as is. Tested it >100% NOS, lucky me!
Telefunken only produced +- 27.000 6080's and 9.000 6080WA's (i have a 1965 6080WA).
For comparison, the rare and wanted ECC803s almost 150.000 pcs. The 6080WA is as rare as the EC8020.
The cheap ones found on ebay and other websites are mostly Telefunken faked GE / RCA / Thomson (France) tubes (the last ones sound good aswel!).
Read about the fakes here https://jacmusic.com/nos/images/Fakes/

Never read about these on this forum nor found a review. So it was a gamble for me.
How does it sound? Clear, open, detailed. It's just turning up the typical Telefunken sound another notch.
It's a tube to look out for! Definitely! And you can easily identify them by build (see Jac).
The tubes.rs ones are the real ones.

A word on the Telefunken 6080WA sound. After a few evenings of listening i can't get it to sound optimal. It has the typical Telefunken sound but lacks in lower end (extension).
This makes it an awesome tube, but only for those wanting to make their system as detailed as possible. I prefer the Bendix/GEC type 6080 sound.
A picture on the night stand, with a Heerlen E80CC to fatten up the sound without losing quality.https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb17821429/p5pb17821429.jpg


For output tubes, my recommendation would be a Svetlana 6H13C with your Telefunken driver (nice coke bottle).
You can find these on E.ay.

Edit: O, you own Telefunken 6080's wow! Want to trade for a few driver tubes? ;)
But my advice on that one would be, DONT! ;)
 
wow ......thank you so much guys for your explanations................ i m on my bottom!!!

i ll come to you in few hours with pics and writings..........as usual some very good but also bad facts.

i wish you all a good wake up ....
 
Paul Birkeland said:
I would recommend reheating all of the solder joints in the amp before you go much further.  What you're describing is how I would describe an amp with a few cold joints.  The music will still come out, but it certainly doesn't sound right!


thank you Paul for your highlight.........!!! i didn't know this was possible . is there any particular one i should try first ?...or for sure have to re-do all of them :-[ :-[ :-[
i will later post few pics of the bottom as i will also do for the TFK tubes.
 
Deluk said:
The standard HD650 cable is fine and makes a good standard reference. I bought my HD600 used and it came with a decidedly expensive East European cable as an extra. It has loads of definition but is balanced very much towards the high frequencies. Reading that the 650 cable was a good value upgrade from the 600 one I bought one and have been pleased with the result. Your green cable might be giving you a similar altered frequency result to my fancy one so best for you to use the 650 one for tube rolling at the moment IMO. Mine came with a RCA 6080 which I like and I'm using it with a 4003 which I just happened to have. A good combo for me. I also have 2 versions of the 6AS7 that sound "OK" but both have issues, the Sylvania one is ultra microphonic and the other one Brimar(?) tends to "sing" a bit one channel. You can only hear that when there is no input signal so not that significant until you wear the cans for a while with nothing playing. Food for thought?
PB's comment posted while I was writing this. Good advice.

Hello Deluk !

sorry i forgot to mention that for all my initial tube test , i use the HD 650 with the stock cable and regarding this would you be kind to tell me if there is a way to correctly set it back to the headphones (only one way to insert the plug??? not easy to say that in french translation  =Keyed?) i mean when you look at the outside of the HD 650 , are you able to see the letters R or L on the plugs ???? or it should be on the ears side ?

I say that because since i install the stock cable back ; i hear a lot of scratches and weir noises when i move the head  :-\ :-\ :-X

 
Deke609 said:
Hi Zarno - a couple of questions:

(1) Did you build it yourself or buy it already built?

(2) What mods, in addition to the SB, does your Crack have?

cheers, Derek

thanks Deke609 for the questions !

Unfortunately i didn 't build the Crack myself as i was living in Indonesia and just got back to Paris , and from indonesia the Bottlehead Crack site and forum was "ban" with my IP , so i was note able to make any orders...... so i had to do differently and finally found a young Canadian student in electronics who proposed himself to buy it for me and also build as he already did for 2 units.
So i had a chance to increase and choose the level of mods :

I have teflon sockets with gold pins
aluminium volume knob with step up attenuator
rhodium rca sockets and ......
uhhh forgot the rest ! but not sure at all any caps ???? :-\ ::)  while i did order it ; i move out of indonesia and got my computer stolen with all writings concerning internal modifications...... i m ashamed not to answer more precisely.....and of course the guy is not answering anymore .......

and i have to be honest , its out of my reach to build such a thing , ironing for me was 35 years ago !!!!! ;D :D
 
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