Thorens TD160 M2 Mods

[M42]

Having read much about the Chadwick mods for Thorens turntables I have decided to apply some of the more popular ones to my deck. The initial inspection shows the spindle and bearing well to be in excellent condition after all these years of service.  I have removed the foam from the springs and added sheets of SoundCoat to deaden vibrations on the motor board.

A new phono cable replaces the original, made from Belden 1505F. A half inch mdf bottom panel will replace the 1/8 in thick unit originally installed. A set of spiked feet will provide further isolation.

I'm looking forward to auditioning the results, attached are some photos of th project so far.

 

[dtroise@bellsouth.net]

Hi
Congratulations on your project.
Everything you are doing will go a long way towards your musical enjoyment, the Thorens is a great turntable, if the suspension is tuned properly it will sing as well as any. I changed my springs and rods to new ones from vinyl nirvana and they are so much better than the stock ones. I also put a Delrin bearing in the oil well which kills the mechanical noise, it raises the platter up by about 2 mm so you would need to adjust the tone arm height.

One more mod that really helps is to use a damping material on the underside of the two platters, the Thorens is  metal on metal and the best sound comes from isolating the parts from each other,
I also put three small rubber disk between the drive platter and spin platter ( all metal parts are isolated from each other with a damping material) This virtually eliminates all the mechanical noise.
Even if you can't hear it the cartridge will pick it up and kill your black background.

The final step is changing the Plinth to solid wood ,Tonearm, and speed control, At this point it will best any turntable in the $10,000.00 range, and you will be very happy with the sweetness that it produces.

I do not use bottom plates (Think Guitar) resonance is your enemy.

Good Music
Don

 

[M42]

Thanks very much for the information Don. What speed control unit do you use with your setup? I have a few questions regarding your recommendations, can I contact you via pm?

 

[dtroise@bellsouth.net]

Hi

Yes, you can P M me and I'll be happy to answer your questions if I can, the speed control that I am using is the Music Hall, it has two feeds, you can split the a/c power or use the D/C voltage ( if you have a D/C motor ) I have not seen a Thorens with a D/C motor except for the one that Origin Live sells for almost $1,000.00.

You would also need to get a strobe and disc to set your speed, George Merrill sells one for around 40.00 @ GEM Dandy Products

Don

 

[JamieMcC]

Nice work I've done similar mods now to a couple of Thorens TT's now
One of the things you might want to consider is replacing the old capacitors and resistor in the power supply these components are only a couple of dollars’ worth. On checking one TT where these components looked in poor condition I found the old components had drifted somewhat from their original values.

 

[rewind67]

I found it all too easy to go too far with damping on my TD150. I only planned to do the subplatter and a bit on the stock armboard-- which had good results. Then I got greedy and thought "what about the chassis, maybe there too..." After a few minutes of heavy-handed Dynamat-ing, I realized what a mistake that was. Killed the 150's dynamics stone dead. What I learned: don't add mass and damping where it don't belong...

Luckily, a putty knife and some Goo Gone brought things back to a good place.

 

[galyons]

snip... At this point it will best any turntable in the $10,000.00 range.....

I have several turntables including TD150, TD124, TD160, VPI TNT Mk IV, Sota Sapphire, VPI HW19 MkIV, Empire 208, Pioneer PL41 and a Gates CB1200,(waiting for new idler wheel to finish restoration). ( I know!  Please don't ask why!)  None come close to costing $10K, the VPI TNT with 12" VPI arm, super platter and single motor flywheel being the most expensive.

I did the Chadwick mods to the TD160 somewhere around 2000.  I kept the TP16 arm and Thorens base, but put in an 18mm Baltic Birch bottom plate, did all of the damping,  redid the wiring with Cardas wire and Vampire solid copper RCA's.  Much work and too much expense.  In comparison to my, then, at hand tables, both the VPI HW19 MkIII and the TNT Mk III trounced  the modded TD160 in every perceivable desired sonic parameter.  The Empire, even with the original Empire arm, sounded better in terms of pace, timbre and imaging.  All of the mods, IMO, took much of the dynamics and fun out of the TD160.  The motor was, IMO, always the weak point and all of the additional platter damping/weight didn't help that reality.  I removed much of the mods, keeping the Baltic Birch inner base and the platter, subplatter damping.  Never considered changing the arm a wise investment, but that may have diminished some of the "returns" on the mod investment. Finally sold it to get the TD124. I bought another TD160 and plan to replace the motor with the same Hurst unit as used by VPI. Got a great deal on the TD160 because the motor shaft was broken.

I am a big vintage Thorens fan, but could never, with  a straight face, make the broad claim as stated above!  Great vintage turntables and they provide high value, but....

Of course, YMMV, as in all things!

Cheers,
Geary

 

[dtroise@bellsouth.net]

Try thinking out of the box

I use Pete Riggles VTAF floating tonearm mount instead of a rigid mount ( The resonance is dissipated when the arm is released from the mechanical binding of a rigid mount) isolating the metal parts to eliminate EMR, delrin bearing in oil well ISO mounts between platters, move the power supply out of the plinth with an umbilical cord and of course the TP 16 is the Achilles heal.  Pete Riggle rosewood Woody with a Soundsmith Zephyr cartridge and a DL 103 R rebuilt by the Soundsmith.The turntables only job is to spin the record at the proper speed w/o mechanical noise. If the Thorens has correct speed and proper tuning she truly sings.

I also have a Merrill modified A/R with the same technology that he builds into his REAL turntables  95 % of the metal is replaced with his Poly System, Sound of The Wood Motor and Controller . A Pete Riggle floating VTAF mount, Grace 714 teak Tonearm. Grado Sonata and Platinum cartridge

A ( stock) Studer Revox Linear tracking with direct servo drive and Ortofon VMS 20 Cartridge, BTW considered by many to be one of the best turntables ever produced. I have seen them sell for
$ 10,000.00 to collectors. I bought it new in 1984 for $ 2,500.00 ( Todays dollars about $ 8000.00)

My statement of besting a turntable of $10000.00 is my opinion and I stand by it, of course I have approx. $ 5,000.00 in the Thorens mainly in the tonearm and cartridge and I would never advise any one to go to that extreme.

I also have a Otari MK 111 and when playing a first generation master tape it will best the Revox and A/R but the Thorens hangs right in there. There is just a certain musicality and organic warmth that it creates, maybe it is all the Tonearms doing, but it only does it on the Thorens.

I like your Turntable choices it seems that you are as crazy as I am.

Don
(Some These mods were under advice from George Merrill, he was even going to design a motor for me and then decided it was too much trouble.)

 

[galyons]

Try thinking...

My statement of besting a turntable of $10000.00 is my opinion and I stand by it....

You are most welcome to your opinion.  That is your right. But that is not what you originally claimed and triggered my response.  You actually posted:

snip... At this point it will best any turntable in the $10,000.00 range....

Big difference between "any"and "a".  There are way too many excellent, well engineered turntables currently available for far less than $10K retail. 

I avoid any tape versus vinyl comparisons.  I enjoy my Otari and think it is top of the heap in prosumer decks. I listen to tapes on the Otari because I have tapes and enjoy the music.  All of my pretensions, in terms of my audio kit, were blown out of my posterior orifice spending time listening to master and TTP tapes at Coast Mastering. I fully enjoy my music, but have heard the "audio unobtainium", in terms of my resources. Master tapes and well engineered copies played on well tuned professional decks rule!!

I bought my VPI HW19 used and then the TNT new because, against all hope, I thought that vinyl was doomed and wanted my "forever TT"!  Glad I was wrong. But there was a period where I could get really nice vintage units and I started my hoarding!!  Thorens and Empire were the early pioneers for belt drive turntables.  Empire was the inspiration for the original VPI HW19. Then idlers were, yet again, the rage...it never ends!

And, yes, it would appear that we are mutually and equally crazy in terms of our audio choices.  But could be worse!!

Cheers,
Geary

 

[dtroise@bellsouth.net]

Yes you are correct

I agree that I should have said IMHO on my first post, I should of also added that a cheap turntable and cartridge set up properly will best an expensive one that is not set up properly regardless of cost, also the system that it is playing into affects the end result as much as any thing else.

I too spent time in recording studios as I am a retired Electrical Engineering Contractor . I have designed and wired many personal recording studios and one commercial one for Miami Vice Star Phillip Michael Thomas.

I know how studio tapes sound and nothing touches it except Live Performance, if you ever come to Key largo you are welcome to listen to my system and draw your own conclusion about my Turntable vs my Tape Deck. ( I too love the tape ) But there is something about spinning Vinyl ( maybe it is Nostalgic )

BTW are you using a tape head amp, if you are which one ? I am building one that Alex Dondysh gave me the schematic for.It uses Western Electric 417 A tubes in mono configuration for each channel. He says I will have to pick my jaw up off of the floor, I hope that is true.

Regards
Don

 

[galyons]

Don,
Thanks for the invitation.  I have been known to take audio and film photography folks up on their hospitality, even as far as Viet Nam!

We are in total agreement on master tapes, and well engineered copies, being the closest media to the actual live performance.  Other than direct mastering, all vinyl is produced from master or safety tapes.  (Never been a big direct mastering fan and sadly, too many current vinyl releases are from the CD master!)

I use a BH Eros tape head, as well as an Eros for phono.  It is a really well designed unit, serving admirably,  for both functions.  My tape EROS has a modified PS, with DC Link film caps and a choke.  The cathode bypasses are Solen poly,  the output caps are Russian KBG Aluminum Foil/PIO, (soon to get the Ampohm Copper Foils I replaced with Duelands in the phono unit) The tubes are Tele EF86, Siemens 7308 and RCA 12BH7A. 

My phono EROS has a modified PS, with DC Link film caps and a choke.  The cathode bypasses are Mundorf EVO Aluminum Oil,  the output caps are Dueland Cast Copper/PIO.  The tubes are Siemens EF86, Amperex 7308 and RCA 12BH7A.  The SUT is a home brew based on Hashimoto MH3 trannies. My current cartridge is a Soundsmith rebuilt Fidelity Research FR1 MkIII.  The FR-1 has an extremely low output, 0.14mv. The Eros and the SUT handle it very will with very low levels, (none from listening position),  of tube rush and/or hum with 102dB/1W speakers.

That is what I love about the BH kit, very well designed and easily customizable to one's taste and budget. I would be interested in taking a look at the tape head schematic from Alex Dondysh.  I have reworked a couple from old Roberts R2R decks and a local buddy's tube ampex tape preamp.  Always looking for ideas!

Cheers,
Geary

 

[dtroise@bellsouth.net]

Geary

I wish I could send you the schematic but Alex asked me not to give it out as he may produce it.

If you are aware of his designs then you know he adheres to the " Nothing sounds better than a straight piece of wire" in the signal path. That being said this design is the simplest filter that I have ever seen, it is only for Nab and the Imp.head load will be for the Otari. It is a dual mono configuration running two 417-A with two separate power supply' using 1 meter umbilical cords,the resistors are Tantalum and wire wound, capacitors are paper in oil, he uses motor run oil capacitors for the power supply but they tend to be Hugh, so I don't think I will do that. The power supply' are tube rectified and regulated. I also implement a dual turn on for tube heaters for the first 30 seconds to create a cathode cloud ( which is very important in this case since the tubes are from $250.00 to $300.00 a pair). This does require two TX. I also regulate the heater voltage to around 6 volts not 6.3. It will be pseudo balanced to match the Otari and my other equipment.

I have not heard the Eros, I  have the SEX for my Audeze LCD headphones and could not be happier with it, I too modified it some what, I implemented a pseudo center tap for the heater circuit and changed the coupling caps to Auri  poly 1 mfd with rel teflon .01 mfd as a bypass, it really opened it up for air and space.

I have a phono pre for each turntable, I have two of John Broskies design The Aikido and Tetra which I assaulted with exotic caps and resistors, I have a ear 843 p that I built using all silver mica and Mundorf silver and gold in the circuit,( my favorite pre) for the coupling I installed a selector switch between Amphon and poly with a Vi Q bypass, I can switch back and forth for different music and yes I hear a diff. between caps. I am waiting for the Duelands new cap to come out this month and then I will change some in my phono amps and pre amp. I also have a selector sw. to change the load resistor as I find different cartridges sound better with different loads as opposed to the standard 47k.

I have a multi amp system using two active cross overs with Linkwitz-Riley filter( Rane and DBX.)
I have 7 tube amps for 300 hz and higher and two Electronic amp for below 300 hz. The pre amp is an Aikido running 4 6SL7 with Tube rectification and Gold point pots. Two outputs with Mundorf Silver and gold and Russian PIO ( soon to be changed with Duelands.)

Tube rush is non existence at the listening chair but at one meter it is there in the Le'Cleach horns the db is 106 and 109 db 1 watt 1 meter, I have played with the thought of building Nelson Pass' first watt design for the super tweeters to see how they function as they have the most white noise. I am of the mind set that if the background is not as black as it can be then there must be a loss.

Probably Insanity,
This is why I have 3 turntables , 3 phono amps six tonearms,12 cartridges,2 R2R Tape decks 1 CD player ,Three DACS ,1 Cassette player, 3 H/P with three H/P amps. Most of the time I listen to the Otari and Thorens

Somebody Please Help Me !

Warm Regards
Don

 

[M42]

Here are a couple more photos of the project so far. These mods have made a definite improvement to the deck. I'm waiting for the platter isolation and spindle kits to arrive (thanks for the information Don). Once all this is installed I'll listen for a while and then install my Funk Firm Achromat and report my impressions.

 

[dtroise@bellsouth.net]

It is looking good, Is that bottom plate made out of Star Board? You might want to listen to for a while and then take off the bottom plate and listen.

Don

 

[M42]

The bottom board is 1/2" mdf. I will try it without the bottom board when I build the new plinth, I'll construct it so a bottom board can be readily added or removed. The platter isolation and spindle bearing/oil kit arrived yesterday. It will likely be the weekend before I have time to install them. I look forward to auditioning the upgrades.

I'm not yet in a position to do an arm upgrade...the bearings seem to be well adjusted on the stock arm, there is no lash in the tonearm. I've read conflicting reports as to the merits of rewiring the arm. I don't know if it's worth the effort...would simply cleaning the cart pins with DeOxit do just as well?

 

[dtroise@bellsouth.net]

Probably, there really is no merit in upgrading that arm unless you plan on keeping it. It is close to impossible to adjust properly and that is the main factor for any arm, Azimuth and V T A is so very important for sound quality, but they must be easily adjustable, otherwise we would never do it.

I would just make sure that the solder connections for the original wire is good and the wire is not compromised, if you have a tiny wire brush to clean the end clips nice and shiny that will go a long way, also make sure that they are snug.
Let us know your impressions when she is broken in.

Don

 

[M42]

I've installed the new spindle oil & bearing kit as well as the turntable platter isolation pads. I am very happy with the net results. The sonic gains far outweigh the modest amount of time and money invested so far!

I hope to start work on a new zebra wood plinth shortly.I'm considering changing the stock arm for a Jelco 750D unit. From all accounts these arms are among the more affordable choices suitable for the TD160, offering superior performance to the TP16 arm. An Ortofon 2M Black cartridge may replace my Grace F9E cart as well. I love the Grace, but its output is only 2.5mv as compared to the 5mv for the Ortofon. For whatever reason the installation of the Integration on my Reduction phono amp has loosened my death grip on the Grace. The 2M Black reviews have me believing it`s the modern day incarnation of the Grace.

The speed control unit and tach made by Pheonix Engineering appear to be no longer available....except at inflated prices on the web. I`m now waiting for a diy unit from Mate Labs in Germany called the Magic Quartz to become available. It appears to be a very capable piece of kit.

I have ordered a Michell record clamp and have yet to install the Funk Firm Achromat platter mat. More to follow.