The MAC Mini Thread

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I have been doing this computer music server thing for many years now and out of windows, linux and Apple, the apple mini is by far the best, and can be taken up  several notches with the Mach2 mods, external FW storage (unless the dac is FW, then you should use usb or thunderbolt storage).  I use puremusic myself but will try Amarra soon, though PM still seems to be the most stable of the two.

Tim R. -- bits are not bits even though they are supposed to be, and yes, extra processing inside the machine does effect sound quality negatively and your assertionss about jitter as well as many other things seem to be based on heresay rather than real world experience, and any c ompetent digital systems engineer will tell you that it is impossible to eliminate jitter, never mind that there are different kinds of jitter, some of which are inaudible and others of which, even in small amunts are very audible.

And no, it's not the codecs that are creating the problem, though it may in part be one part of the puzzle, but electrical noise, power suplies, etc. are critical in digital audio, which is no9t the same as digital data transmission.

You say you never could afford a mini and thus I'm assuming you've never played with one, tried different settings, software, dacs, etc. with it, but the mac mini -- not a macbook, Pro, iMac or whatever, is anything near the audio performance of the mini, and neither is a stripped down single board linux computer or windows with XP or Vista -- though some are getting results close to or equal to the mini with some combinations of win7, playback software and dacs.  So again, your assertion that the mini would, or should be the worst platform is completely unfounded and just plain wrong.

And before you ask, aside ffrom experimexperimenting with probably 25 different dacs, 45 or 6 computer platforms, various connections from spdif to usb to firewire, and many different software solutions,  I am an EE/CE by training and did my graduate work in computer and cognitive science, so my background, aside from my 40 years of audio experience is earned, and I'm still elearning every day ss it seems the rest of the world is as well, especially when it comes to digital audio.  And no, I absolutely do not it all, in fact I consider myself still pretty green in many ways, experience aside.

Now... to the original OP, a very good place to start with a mac mini is with a stock machine -- the most basic 2.3 ghz 2011 or a 2010 is just fine.  Max out the memory to 8gb -- cheap and very much worth it (but don't buy the memory from Apple, buy it and install it yourself -- I'm totally blind and did it in under 2 minutes), buy a third party SSD of 40 to 60 gb (vertex and Crucial are good choices), turn off a bunch of unnecessary features and services (there are many onlie guides on what and how to do this), and then assuming you would be using a usb to spdif converter or usb dac, get something like the 1 tb Oyen Digital MiniPro FW800 portable drive for music storage (or something similar that uses the Oxford fw chipset), rip tunes to AIFF using XLD -- even better than iTunes with error correction enabled, but a PITA to setup for the first time).  Then pick a software package you like -- Pure Music, Amarra, iTunes with BitPerf.app, Decibel, Audirvana or the Plus version, and have at it.  Also try to turn off as many unneeded interfaces as possible -- ir receiver, ethernet if you don't need a network connection, blue tooth for sure, and wireless lan if also not needed, and experiment with the polarity of the power cord for the sound you want -- in one orientation it's more warm and in the other, more bright.

I use mine with a wired usb keyboard and a headphone extension cable so I can use the speech system in macs -- VoiceOver) to navigate my way arund the machine, but PureMusic also lets you use the iTunes remottte app on an iPhone/iPad/iPod touch if you so desire, but you will havve to have either the ethernet or wireless enabled for that to work.

That should get you going, and will give you sonics equal to or better than some veryhigh-end CDPs, and in fact, my experience has been that an accurately ripped CD, played from memory through a good dac will sound noticeably better than extreme CD players.  I used to own an Audio Aero Capitole 24/192 Mk.II SE and the information that I can get out of a standard redbook cd with my mac mini rig isfar superior -- in fact, most people can hardly believe how much information there really is on a standard 16/44.1 CD.

Hope this helps -- this is what I use in 2 of my 3 systems, thought the reference system does use a DC modified Mach2 server with a Pi battery buss, which BTW, just takes the whole thing into a whole new realm, and this week I'll add dc power to the external firewire drive (another large improvement) and a specially built firewire cable with the power legs removed -- again, isolating the computer noise from the storage subsystem and dac as much as possible.  Admittedly this is a system that is a bit oveer the top but it is far better than any digital I've heard anywhere, and I've heard many of the best of the best as I have some local friends who are super high end dealers.

Good luck, and yes, I whole heartedly recommend the mac mini over pretty mucch anything else at this point.

Also apologize for the myriad typos -- my keyboard is getting old and my screen reader is not letting me review my writing.

-- Jim
 
jrebman said:
Good luck, and yes, I whole heartedly recommend the mac mini over pretty mucch anything else at this point.

I second that. You can get a new Mac Mini for about $570. The advantage of a new one is that you can have two internal hard drives. With the older ones you can pull the "Superdrive" and use a kit to install a second drive, but I have read of issues in trying to use an SSD as a boot drive in the older mini's.
 
jrebman said:
Now... to the original OP, a very good place to start with a mac mini is with a stock machine -- the most basic 2.3 ghz 2011 or a 2010 is just fine.  Max out the memory to 8gb..., buy a third party SSD of 40 to 60 gb..., turn off a bunch of unnecessary features and services..., and then assuming you would be using a usb to spdif converter or usb dac, get something like the 1 tb Oyen Digital MiniPro FW800 portable drive for music storage..., rip tunes to AIFF....

I bought a 2008 used MacMini with an SSD hard drive.  I added a 1 TB Oyen FW800 portable drive and ripped my CDs in AIFF (easy to hear the difference on my system...did several A/B tests and always preferred AIFF).  

I used Decibel for playback via USB to my DAC until recently (now I've got an ethernet connection via a Bolder Cable Co modified Squeezebox Touch).

This all proved very economical and the sound quality was tremendous.  It can be improved and I've taken some of those steps based on the advice of folks whom I trust...the setup can really grow to new levels as one is able to spend additional dollars.  

I wouldn't hesitate to recommend a Mac Mini with the basic steps taken.

John
 
Actually, I use only the single SSD in the mini and it is a boot drive, and I have many many friends who also use this setup and nobody has ever reported a problem with an SSD as a boot drive.  In fact, the fewer power consuming parts you have in the mini, the better.  Not saying that 2 HDs inonne mini won't work, but the less you have in the mini, especially traditional HDs with spinning mmotors, etc., the better the final sound.

Even in the fully maxed out mini that has been stripped down from OS to hardware, doing something like turning off the dithered volume control, whether you're using it or not, makes a clearly audible differentce (PureMusic)  Anything that consumes more power or adds processing overhead degrades the sound just that much more.

-- Jim

 
jrebman said:
Actually, I use only the single SSD in the mini and it is a boot drive, and I have many many friends who also use this setup and nobody has ever reported a problem with an SSD as a boot drive.  In fact, the fewer power consuming parts you have in the mini, the better.  Not saying that 2 HDs inonne mini won't work, but the less you have in the mini, especially traditional HDs with spinning mmotors, etc., the better the final sound.

Even in the fully maxed out mini that has been stripped down from OS to hardware, doing something like turning off the dithered volume control, whether you're using it or not, makes a clearly audible differentce (PureMusic)  Anything that consumes more power or adds processing overhead degrades the sound just that much more.

-- Jim

Hi Jim,

I'm not sure who you are speaking to on the two hard drives but to clarify in case I had misspoke, I only have one drive in the Mini: the SSD.  My HDD is the portable. By the way, my setup has never sounded better than it does tonight! 

Cheers,
John
 
Hi John,

Sorry, I was replying mostlyto Yoder.  And again, not saying that 2 HDs won't work in a mini, but it's just not optimum for best sonics, and I have never heardd of or seen any problems with SSDs ads boot drives in the later mac minis.  Though this may be a problem with some of the Apple OEM SSDs, which are far too expensive and not very good drives to begin with.  They also don't hold up with Windows OSs very well as boot drives s the file system is just too brutal on them andd things like a defrag can create hot spots in the drive and lead to premature failure.

I was going to put an SSD in my big windows machine, but after doing the research, decided it's best to forego this.

Glad to hear that thigs are sounding so good -- did the augie towers get to you yet?

I have to say that my listening room system is sounding just oout of this world now and that's still with the relatively inexpensive CD player as source  The mini willl go back in this system in the next couple of days and I'll put a pretty much stock mini in the living room now though will eventually install a SSD and a Pi power cable on that one, and probably eventually the Mach2 software.  That's where the CEntrance DACMini CX, stereomour and Orcas/subs will go too, so shaping up to be a really nice system at a fraction of the price of the reference system.

-- Jim

 
Jim,

I just read a very nice review of the DACmini by Wayne from Bolder Cable Co. and it was very complimentary of the DAC you are putting in your system. I suspect it will be a great match for the Stereomour!

My Augie Towers did arrive and they are sounding very nice!  They look/feel so good, too!  You can tell they are made from real wood by hand just by touching them.  The bass immediately tightened up and is very clean sounding, indeed.  I can tell you the shipping crates that Mike used did the job!  One crate had clearly been dropped and had broken wood...yet not even a slight worry on the inside.  I insisted on opening it while the Yellow Freight driver was still there.  He was happy to see the speaker and commented I was going to "blow away the neighborhood" with those! 

Although it won't do you any good, here is a photo of one of them next to my old baffle:

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I'm on the "wild and wooly" burn in of my Bolder Music Rail PS for my SB Touch...the first 100 hours were ROUGH!!!  Suddenly it sounds better than I've heard the system sound before. I've been warned it can go bad once or twice more until 300 hours.  Hopefully not...

How is your new stand coming?  The quality is worth the wait...

Best,
John
 
ramicio said:
You're not supposed to defrag an SSD.  Windows 7 turns off defrag scheduling for SSD drives by default.  It also enables TRIM by default on SSDs.  It sounds like you didn't do much real research into using an SSD on a Windows system :)  And why would a hard drive change the sound of an audio file?  Or is that not what anyone is claiming.  Are people simply claiming that they are physically loud?

What I am hearing folks say is that there is electrical and mechanical "noise" that is created by using an HDD that isn't present in an SSD. 

I understand folks don't always believe that such noise can have an impact on sound quality, yet there are plenty of examples that people can easily A/B and decide for themselves.  A good example is a high quality linear power supply for a Squeezebox Touch vs the stock switching power supply.  Everyone who has listened to that A/B has preferred the linear to the switching yet there is no change other than electrical "noise" in the system. 

John
 
Hi John,

I'll send you an email so as to not go too far astray with this thread.

Ramacio, of course you can defeat defrag, and yes, the whole point is that you can't defrag an SSD --so why use a drive in a windows machine that you can't defrag?  Seems like a  rather bad idea to me. Just because defrag is disabled or can be, doesn't suddenly mean that the OS gets a file system upgrade such that it does not neeed defragging anymore.

And yes, there is a sonic differrence between drives of the same type -- ssd or rotating/mechanical and there are a bunch of factors that go into it so prediction is nearly impossible, but many people have done tests and found certain drives to sound cleaner and better than others -- again, bits are not bits and there is much that can effect them going from source to final destination.  Power supplies, interface chipsets, pcb layouts, enclosures, connectors, cabling all figures in, especially at such high frequencies and small signal levels.  Suggest you stop reading what other's say and parroting it back, and do some emprical research for yourself -- I'm quite certain that is the only way you'll really understand -- and if you can't hear the difference, more power to you, you just saved yyourself a lot of time and money.  I've spent the time and money and the results have beeen completely worth it for me.

I moved to computer audio as a matter of convenience because having my whole music catalog available in a form I can easily access and manage (ratther than a thousand CDs and hundreds of avinyl albums -- all with braille labels, was getting to be no fun and thus limited my listening.

At first the convenience wwas great but the sonics not so much.  Now the sonics are as good and better in many ways than any top shelf CDP or turntable I've had, meaning that my sound is now better than ever, and completely convenient as well, and therefore I listen more often and with more satisfaction than ever before.

And isn't that the whole point?

-- Jim
 
Ok, but then what happens when you have broken files?  I've been doing this for far more years than you've been alive and I choose to not use SSDs with windows at this point -- does that meet with your approval?

As for testing and research methods, I'm also well versed in those and since audio is basically a subjective experience, much of the objective testing you suggest tells an experienced audio person very little.  And FYI, all my testing is blind :-).

You seem very certain in your knowledge so that's fine -- ignorance is bliss.

Enjoy the soundd of your cooling fans and I'll not be engaging you on this or any other topic from here on out.

Toodlooski,

Jim
 
Once again I am forced to lock a thread that may contain useful information, but one in which that participants are mistaking intolerance for each other with useful contribution. Guys, cut the insults and limit the discussions here to the sharing of information. I will not tolerate this.
 
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