speaker query

[denti alligator]

My listening room is very small. 11'x11', but with book cases on nearly every wall, so it's effectively 10'x10'.

I plan to use the S.E.X. primarily with 'phones, but want the option of running small speaker with it as well. I currently only have a pair of Paradigm Atoms, which I don't particularly like (they're too dark for me), that I can use in the room (the better B&Ws are in my home theater system in another room). But the average sensitivity of these Paradigms (89 db) is too low for the S.E.X, anyway. Though I'm wondering if, since the room is so small to begin with, they won't work for my purposes.

Suggestions...?

 

[jrebman]

Hi Sam,
What's your budget and do you have a maximum size in mind?  Can you build your own?

I have several suggestions based on what I've owned and built for myself over the years and have used with low power, highish output impedance amps.  Also, what kinds of music do you listen to, and is gut-slamming bass an absolute requirement?

-- Jim

 

[Paul Joppa]

I have JBL L-36's in a small room, 6' by 15' (with a big opening to a larger space), which we use with a SEX amp and a 20" TV for movies. It is more than loud enough for us; I've never been able to clip the amp. Of course, we take earplugs to movie theaters and often use them - depends on how loud you like to listen I guess.

 

[denti alligator]

Budget right now is zero.

Any additional funds are going toward the Seduction. Then I'll start saving for new speakers, maybe these.

I'm just curious if the Paradigms will be okay in the meantime. Super loud volume is not that important, though I would like to crank it up every now and then.

 

[Dr. Toobz]

I actually think you'll be OK with those, at least for now. The first speakers I used with the S.E.X. amp were a pair of Polk RTi-A1's, which are also rated at 89dB. They were plenty loud in my similarly-sized listening room (12x12). Of course, we're not talking rock-concert levels here, just loud enough to be useful. FWIW, I currently use a pair of 99dB/Wm speakers, and the S.E.X. can go much, much louder than I would ever need in that size of room.

The gutsy 2W parafeed output of the S.E.X. might surprise you - and with SET amps, a satisfying listening level may actually be a bit lower than you're accustomed to needing with a "sand" amp. The only thing I might suggest is to use the 4 ohm taps vs. 8 ohm if the Paradigms have a complex crossover and/or really low (2 or 3 ohm) absolute minimum impedance, which tends to be the case with modern bookshelf speakers made for solid-state amps.

Later on, when your budget allows, something like the single driver Tekton speakers you've linked to, or horns (like my Heresy III's; http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/heresy-iii-overview/) would be the cat's meow when paired with the S.E.X. amp.  

 

[jrebman]

Well, one speaker I was going to suggest is the zigmahornets.  For the most part you buy the 4" Merrill drivers from Two Bald Guys audio in Oregon and build the cabinets yourself.  They are tall and thin, about 5" square and 5 feet tall, and while they don't shake the room with bass, the bass goes down to a solid 40 hz and is very, very articulate.  Perhaps the best affordable SD speaker I've ever heard.  My pair is just about done except for finish sanding and painting, but I have heard my friends' pair and they are wonderful.  There are also people who build these for you, and at very resonable prices, and that might be a way to go too.  You can also use the fostex fe-103 drivers, but at somewhat lower sensitivity.  If you need more bas impact, an open baffle 10" Hawthorne Augie and a plate amp will be super easy to integrate, typically won't excite room nodes like a sealed or ported sub, and be fairly easy on the wallet.

 

[denti alligator]

The only thing I might suggest is to use the 4 ohm taps vs. 8 ohm if the Paradigms have a complex crossover and/or really low (2 or 3 ohm) absolute minimum impedance, which tends to be the case with modern bookshelf speakers made for solid-state amps.

Digging about online I can't find anything on what these speakers' minimum impedance is. And I'm too inexperienced to tell if the crossover is complex or not. Is there any danger to trying out both taps? The specs do say they're meant for 8 ohms.

 

[JC]

Using a lower impedance at the amp than the nominal of the speaker is seldom, if ever, a problem.  High current SS amps almost always have a much lower output impedance than the loads they drive.  Most any amp has a lower output impedance than its load if the load is headphones.

You may just lose a touch of power, is all.  Best power transfer is with perfectly matched impedances,  which never happens with a loudspeaker over its entire range anyway.

Interestingly enough, the best power transfer point is usually not the best in terms of fidelity.

 

[Cary]

I use a pair of JBL L19's in my home with the SEX/Quickie combo, and sounds great!

 

[denti alligator]

I'd like to return to this topic. My budget is about $500. Not much. The Tekton pair is still a consideration, but I'd like to hear about what other options I might have.

Again, small room. Bass is not as important as clarity and brighter than darker sound. But bass is not unimportant, of course.

What are my options for 97-99db sensitivity and higher at that price range?

 

[Grainger49]

I think the Orca are $550/pr.  Doc mentions them here:

http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,1943.0.html

 

[jrebman]

Sam,

For $500 and 97-99 db the choices are extremely limited.  Basically about the only thing you're going to find at that price at that sensitivity is a pair of used klipsch heresys or other bookshelf models, and they will be well used and will probably need work at least on the crossovers.

You might also find a used set of horn shoppe horns or frugal horns but those are more like 93 dB, and the Orcas that Grainger mentioned are more like 90 or less and will need a sub for music.

HTH,

Jim

 

[denti alligator]

So the Tektons are the way to go, eh?

 

[jrebman]

Sam,

Have you confirmed with Eric that he still makes these?  Reason being is that the FE-207e is out of production and has been for a while now.  Also, without a tweeter to help, they will probably tend to be somewhat dark.  My current speakers have FE207es and ribbon tweeters and they sound great, but the cones are treated and there are simple crossover elements on each driver but when I've run the 207s on their own, it was not nearly so nice.

Also, I'm not sure the new fe-206En is up to filling the shoes of the 207 as it is designed more for horn loading and the 81en speaker is a bass reflex design.

A smaller full range, single driver speaker at 91-94 db should be fine with the s.e.x. the speakers you currently have probably have very complex and cheap crossovers which are eating up a lot of the power.  Also check out fritzspeakers to see if any of his single driver speakers are in your range, and maybe also parker audio and decware?

-- Jim

 

[denti alligator]

He definitely still makes the 8.1en http://www.tektondesign.com/products.html

Dark is bad. I much prefer a bright sound. If these are going to sound dark, then I'll need to look elsewhere.

(EDIT: there's always these cheap Klipsch: http://www.klipsch.com/rb-61-ii-bookshelf-speakers-pair)

 

[Paul Joppa]

So far this particular thread does not mention the SEXy speaker linked off the SEX amp page. This is still my recommendation for a budget approach with the SEX amp. The 6.5" Fostexes are around 96dB.

When we were looking at this, I tried a larger ported box with a FE167, designed with the increased Q due to a SET amp. This allowed it to get deeper in the bass than the standard Fostex ported design, so it was a fullrange design with no external bass augmentation (no subwoofers). In the end we didn't like the excursion-limited bass, and went with the SEXy design instead, but some people might be happy enough with it - a non-audiophile insisted on buying the prototypes from me even after I explained why I didn't like them.

There is an open-baffle 2-way design floating around using the 4" Fostex as tweeter with a high-efficiency 12" woofer, that is said to sound pretty good. I have not run across one yet, but the design is well explained on the web and a similar design could probably be make using one of the 6.5" Fostex drivers, for greater efficiency.

 

[denti alligator]

I went ahead and got those Klipsch Reference 61s, which were on sale at Crutchfield, so if I didn't like anything about them I knew I could return easily. I'm not up for building right now, so the SEXy speakers are out. The single-driver Tektons are the only under $500 and I was concerned about them being too "dark."

These Klipsch definitely don't have that problem. They sound really open and clear. Bass is fine.

The only thing I'm surprised about is how much I have to turn the volume pot to get them going really loud. I realize the sensitivity is still a couple db under what is desired (they're at 95db), but I figured moving from my 89db Paradigms there would be a dramatic difference. There really isn't. I've got to get it up to well over 50% to get them nice and loud. Granted, I now have them in a different place in the same room, about 10 feet away, where the old ones were only about 2 feet away. Still...

 

[2wo]

People put too much into the position of the pot. This is an issue if the first click is too loud, or all the way up isn't enough. You can read Paul's white paper on the subject, if you want all of the gory details but the short version is. If you can adjust the pot as low as you want and as loud as you want, without hitting a stop and the 2 points are not too close together . you're good to go...John 

 

[denti alligator]

I wouldn't have thought anything of it, if it weren't for the comparison with the other speakers. I thought 3db difference in sensitivity was comparable to double the power; 6db difference to quadruple the power.

The 50% point on the 89db Paradigms is not much different than the 50% point on the 95db Klipsch. I found that odd. You're saying there's nothing odd about it?  If so, that's good, I guess.

 

[Doc B]

Along with the sensitivity you also need to factor in the impedance of the speaker. There may be differences that help to account for some of the reason output levels seem closer than they should, for example if the more sensitive 8 ohm speaker is more on the 10 or 12 ohm side and the less sensitive one is more on the 6 ohm side and both are playing from the 8 ohm tap.