self bias circuit removal removal risks and rewards

Thank you for clarifying this further for me.  I wish I knew more about the theory behind it all, maybe I wouldn't get hung up on every mod I read about!  You pretty much nailed it with the equalization - while the highs are more open and detailed, the bass is a tad thinner.  I'll likely go back to the servo config as the amp is amazing as designed - and had been trouble free with pretty much any tubes I plugged into it.

Thanks again
 
Hmmm, well mine isn't working so well.  The 6BR7's are only getting around 70 to 75v and the 6922 plate to cathodes are 114v and 112v.  Is it me or the 6BR7's?  Am I going to have to convert these over to EF86?
 
You might be able to get there by changing the type of LED that you are using. Different types of LED have different forward voltage drops. What kind of LED are you using now?
 
I'm using the standard Avago HLMP-6000 that Bottlehead provides with the kits.  Could you specify a part that might work better and a voltage range I should be looking at?  LED specs get a little confusing for me.  Thank you!
 
I use small indicator LED's with low light output (mcd) values just so they don't light up the whole room from underneath the chassis.

You should measure the voltage across the HLMP-6000 so that you know where you are at now. Other red LED's will give you a very similar voltage. Green ones are usually the next step up in forward voltage, then yellow. I haven't looked at specs for blue or white LED's in some time. Another interesting type of LED are the IR (infrared) ones. They typically have a forward voltage drop around 1.2V.

So basically what you can get is: just around 1.6V with the HLMP-6000, a bit more with other red LED's, 1.7+V with small green indicator LED's, 1.9V with yellow ones, 2.3+V with two IR LED's in series. There must be other LED's out there to fill the gap between 1.9V and 2.4V I just haven't had to look.

How easy is it for you to go back to the servo circuit on one channel? It would be helpful to know what your bias voltage is with the servo circuit in place.
 
The HLMP-6000 was selected some years agon by John "Buddha" Camille, for its exceptionally low noise and its low dynamic impedance. Other diodes will have different voltages and impedance - by the way, there are several different red formulations.

The direct couple circuit has some negative DC feedback to stabilize the operating point, derived by feeding the EF86 screen from the 6922 cathode. (Incidentally, the 'Tode guitar amp under development has the same circuit - an old Mullard innovation.) Most old-stock EF86s are close enough to the spec that they will bias up correctly with the design choice HLMP-6000. Modern production EF86s are less consistent and many need a greater amount of DC negative feedback, provided by the servo circuit.

Obviously tubes that differ further from the EF86 specs can sometimes be made to work by the servo, but would be especially unlikely to work without it.

An alternative to the servo bias is adjustable bias, in the present case substituting other diodes until the right operating point is achieved. Unless you have access to tube curves at 100v on the screen, it is impractical to predict what the bias should be - I had to develop my own EF86 curves to do the original design. I have another adjustable bias in mind, but have not had a chance to test it yet - and I won't share it until I know whether it works, sounds good, and is quiet. Risks of changing the bias scheme are noise and distortion. Risks of changing tubes are noise and RIAA equalization accuracy - the tube's plate resistance is incorporated into the equalization, primarily affecting the 50Hz low frequency corner.

We elected not to pursue such a design because it requires re-adjustment as the tube ages and whenever tubes are replaced, including rolling tubes. It's not just the practical difficulties, I also worry that too many Eros' will be operating out of adjustment, sound bad, and create a poor opinion of the Eros.
 
Thanks guys.  I will rewire one of the channels for EF86 and restest.  With the Tube Phono at home I've collected a few that should work nicely. 
 
Alright, a little update.  As I've got a stash of these 6BR7's I reinstalled the servo's and measured.  Not good...  Here is what I'm getting with the 6BR7 and 6922: 52.7v/96.7v, 58.3v/ 94.2v.  As it stands, none of my voltages are w/in range.  So I converted one channel to EF86 and restested; line voltage is 119.6v (50Hz)

With servo: 60.2v/ 95.4v
With LED and Winged C EF86: 84.6v/85.1v
With LED and CV4086: 61.3v/95.1v (this voltage changed for some reason after I swapped tubes and never returned to this level)


Edited to save on posting.  I converted the other channel over and have found that not all tubes are the same.  Here are the final results with CV4086 tubes (the best of the four):

R 71v/ 89.3v on EF86 cathode
L 70v/ 93.3v on EF86 cathode

PJ, my voltages are good for the 6922 but a little low for the EF86.  Do I need to keep trying tubes until I get it right??
 
Argh...darn me for reading this forum and getting obsessed about mods.  I just HAD to try it.  Ugh.

So I have a pair of Telefunken EF86's and a spare pair of the Avago LEDs, so I figured I would give this a try.  The actual mod was easy and went very smoothly.

My plate voltage for the EF86 (measured from OB to ground) is now ~105v (vs. ~95v with servo).  My 6922 plate is now ~150v and the 6922 cathode is ~105v (vs. ~160v and ~97v with servo).

So, my EF86 plate voltage is in-range, but the 6922 plate to cathode gap is now too small (right?).  This may be a noob question, but does this mean my LED bias voltage (1.54v) is too high or too low, e.g. do I want something closer to 1.3 or to 1.7v?

Profuse thanks in advance.  BTW, the Eros ROCKED until I started messing with it.  Thanks for an awesome kit!


Drew
 
You'll need a more specific voltage reading of the cathode voltage of the 6922 and the plate voltage of the EF86, see if you can grab the first decimal place and report back (you can also listen, it's very audible when things aren't in check).
 
Caucasian Blackplate said:
You'll need a more specific voltage reading of the cathode voltage of the 6922 and the plate voltage of the EF86, see if you can grab the first decimal place and report back (you can also listen, it's very audible when things aren't in check).

Thanks, CB.  Here are the more precise measurements:

EF86 Plate (at OB) = 103.5v (Socket A) / 101.5v (Socket B)
6922 Plate (at OA) = 149.2v (A) / 149.5v (B)
6922 Cathode (at breg) = 104.3v (A) / 102.4v (B)


BTW, it sounds fine, but PJ's post on the 6922 voltage gap made me nervous.

Thanks again - Drew
 
A little higher than 1.54V will get you closer to the optimal voltages, if I remember correctly. Not much higher though, it is a trial and error thing, but worth the effort.
 
Those numbers look acceptable.  What I often see is that the EF86 plate is slightly positive with respect to the 6922 cathode, which is seriously undesireable, or that the gap is overly tight (a few tenths of a volt or so).
 
grufti said:
Grufti wrote:

The setup that I have right now actually uses standard red LED's, because the lower voltage of the HLMP-6000 [about 1.56V] had the EF86 tubes at 107V and the 6922 at about 150V. The standard red LED gives me about 1.65V.

[...]


Grufti,

Can you provide any further detail about the "standard red" LEDs that you successfully used (brand, model/part number, etc.)?  I think I'm in a very similar boat where the 1.54v voltage drop of the HLMP-6000 is just slightly too low for optimal biasing.  I went on Mouser and Digikey to look at red LEDs and was overwhelmed (and confused) by all the options.  Any further guidance to narrow my search is much appreciated.

-Drew
 
Are you saying that there is a problem in that the Eros sounds bad now, like distortion? Or are you just worrying about numbers? As PB said, if the 6922 cathode is positive with respect to the EF86 plate by an adequate amount a little difference in the 6922 plate voltage doesn't matter that much. Those numbers can change a little with every 6922 you try. If it bothers you, put the servo back in. That's what is controls.
 
Doc B. said:
Are you saying that there is a problem in that the Eros sounds bad now, like distortion? Or are you just worrying about numbers? As PB said, if the 6922 cathode is positive with respect to the EF86 plate by an adequate amount a little difference in the 6922 plate voltage doesn't matter that much. Those numbers can change a little with every 6922 you try. If it bothers you, put the servo back in. That's what is controls.

Thanks, Doc. No, it doesn't sound bad...the low bass may be ever-so-slightly rolled off, but that's subtle enough that I'm probably imagining it.  I'm just looking at numbers, but it isn't bothering me...just trying to have my cake and eat it, too.  I'm actually enjoying the process of trying to dial this in...but I made sure I have two spare sets of parts for the servo before I started.  Plan B will be to replace the servo and stop obsessing.
 
Low bass sounding rolled off is most likely just the difference in the sound of the tube itself vs. the original one. Remember that we design for a certain operating point, but that we end up measuring and reporting exactly what we measured in the prototype whether it hit the design values exactly or not. With tube circuits there is always going to be a little variation. Understanding what numbers can be different than the manual and be OK, vs. which ones are bad if they are different than the manual is really the key issue.
 
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