Paramount? Maybe.... what'cha think?

[rebbi]

Hi, Gang,

Been a long time since my last post here! I built a Seduction kit a few years ago and have been very happy with it.

So: I have been happily using my Reference 3A De Capo stand-mounts with a Manley Shrimp preamp and a pair of Manley Mahi mono-blocks (in 20 wpc triode mode exclusively). My room is approx. 16' x 11' with an 8' ceiling. The De Capo's are a straightforward 8 ohm load and are 92 db sensitive. They were, by all accounts, voiced with SET amps in mind.

The other day, over on Audio Asylum, someone said, "If you really want to hear your De Capo's sing, you need to hear them with a SET amp." Hence, my interest in the Paramount kit.

Anybody got opinions about this pairing? And since I'd need a preamp, how do you think the Shrimp would pair with the Paramount? And, how do you think the Paramount compares to commercially available offerings from, say, Antique Sound Labs or Decware?

I breathlessly await your wisdom.  ;D

 

[Paul Birkeland]

Your room size and speaker should work quite well on Paramounts (stick to 300B's).

For making an informed purchasing decision, it would be worthwhile to read up on directly heated triodes vs. everything else. 

Being a Bottlehead employee, I will bow out to making further comparisons. 

 

[tsingle999]

There is no comparison between a Decware SET and a Bottlehead SET. The SEX amp is way better than the Decware when i had both. The dht BH ampS are better than the sex amp. Just my opinion.

 

[wullymc]

I can't say much in terms of the different companies you are trying to prepare.  What i can tell you is that I have Paramounts on order and in no way feeling buyers remorse.  I have completed a Quickie and Crack kits and find them excellent.

What I can also tell you is that you won't find a better community to help you than here.  Everyone employed at Bottlehead I have had the pleasure of talking with has been extremely helpful, and professional.  Anytime that I have had any questions they were responses the same day and helped me getting my stuff working.  I know that when I need their help they will be there for me.

Good luck in your decision.  All the best...Dave

 

[Brent]

It looks like the Shrimp's gain (11.8 dB) and output impedance (50 Ohms) would match well electrically with the Paramounts (input impedance 249KOhms and input sensitivity 1.56v for full power).

I use my Paramounts with a Smash or sometimes a passive volume controller to switch things up.  Smash, which has a little less gain than the Shrimp, works out a bit better with my speakers, which are about 90 dB Alpair 10p Pensils.  All of which is to say (again) that the Paramounts should work out alright in your system gain wise based on my experience and listening habits.

I haven't heard the Shrimp.  As to the Paramounts, though, I can't think of any amplifier I would rather own. Whatever else happens, I've got that amplifier problem handled.

 

[Paully]

Didn't Grainger have 2a3 Paramours running his Triangle speakers (similar sensitivity).  Thought I heard that pairing and it was wonderful.  I would imagine Paramount 300B's would be more so.

But I am biased (I love making that pun) as we all are.  There are simply no better kits out there for quality sound and quality manuals than Bottlehead.  That I do believe.  If I had it to do over again I wouldn't hesitate to buy the Paramounts.

Other questions, sorry, don't have an opinion!

 

[rebbi]

You know, a certain, very active Forum participant  ;D PM'ed me to say that he thinks that the Stereoamour would actually be a great match for the De Capo's. What do the rest of you think?

 

[Paul Birkeland]

I think the extra power and fidelity from the Paramounts would be a better match for the De Capos.

 

[Paul Joppa]

Unfortunately, rooms, ears, and musical taste vary widely.

I usually recommend 10 watts for a 92dB speaker. This comes from analysis of several years worth of Stereopile speaker reviews, which list the magazines recommended minimum power - this is enough to get 102dB peaks, and if you allow both speakers to run you get 105dB which is the THX home=theater standard.

It is my estimate that the above combination will satisfy "most audiophiles most of the time". I also estimate that 6dB less (1/4 the power) will "usually satisfy 50% of audiophiles" (and 90% of their wives, I'm guessing, since women on average have more sensitive hearing).

None of the above allows for the soft clipping of no-feedback triode amps. Some people are more sensitive to this than others, and musical/recording style plays a huge role, so I don't like to put a number on it. But there is some truth to the reputation that SET watts are bigger than solid-state watts. (this paragraph added)

 

[Maynard]

How about a 96db speaker? How many watts would you recommend then?

 

[Paul Joppa]

96dB = 4 watts.

The calculation is the power (in dB re: 1 watt) plus the sensitivity (dB/w/m) equals 102dB.

Power in dB re 1 watt is 10*log10(watts): 2 watts is 3dB, 4 watts is 6dB, 8 watts is 9dB, etc...

 

[Demsy]

My room is almost the same size as yours, Rebbi. At the moment I'm using a Troels Gravesen DTQWT horn loudspeakers, 95db sensitive, with 2A3 Paramounts. For my music listening, it's more than enough power for jazz, classical, pop etc. I have a 105db speakers coming, I am sure 3.5w is plenty.
But one thing to look at is the impedance of the speakers, with too high rising impedance, you'll then need more power to drive them, though.

 

[rebbi]

Everybody,
First of all, thanks for the interesting and very helpful responses.
I tend to think that the Paramours would do it for me for a couple of reasons.
First, although I occasionally crank my system, I don't like listening at "rock concert levels." (Call it paranoia about preserving my middle-aged ears.) I tend to like to listen "into" the music, rather than being battered by it. 
Additionally, Reference 3A, maker of the De Capo, also imports the Antique Sound Labs line of tube electronics, and they say that the ASL AQ 1005 DT integrated was pretty much designed with the De Capo's in mind. Here are the relevant specs on that ASL amp...

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
Output Power 8WPC
Frequency responsible  at 1 W 18Hz - 19KHz
Frequency responsible at full power 33Hz - 18KHz
Distortion at 1W 0.7%
Distortion at full power 8%
S/N Ratio at full power/ Noise level mV 80 dB /<1.2mV
S/N Ratio at 1Watt / 8Ohms 67 dB
Input impedance 100K
Output Impedance 4, 8, 16 Ohm
Input sensitive 1V
Power request 250W

So, that being the case, the Paramour would seem to be a good match, no?

 

[Paul Birkeland]

Yeah, the Paramount will spec out similarly to that amp, though I suspect the bandwidth will be quite a bit higher (we don't generally bother to measure bandwidth at anything other than full power), and the noise level we have measured is a bit lower than 1.2mV (you don't notice on your De Capos).

 

[rebbi]

I know it's a little silly asking this question on this forum, but how do you think the Paramounts stack up against the Coincident Dynamo 34 SE?

http://www.coincidentspeaker.com/mpsip_amps.html

 

[Doc B]

The philosophy here at Bottlehead is not to try to sell our product by hurling superlatives about our stuff at our competitor's products, even more so if we haven't even heard them. There is absolutely no good reason for doing so. Obviously I think our products are a great value for the money and sound very good. I also like to think that the depth of talent of our design staff is pretty hard to match.

 

[Natural Sound]

I know it's a little silly asking this question on this forum, but how do you think the Paramounts stack up against the Coincident Dynamo 34 SE?

http://www.coincidentspeaker.com/mpsip_amps.html

Agreed, it is silly comparing a 2A3/300B amp to an 845 Amp. Apples to oranges. Oh, and what Doc said.

 

[Doc B]

It's the EL34 amp he's asking about and actually I don't think the question was silly. I simply feel it's best to talk about the merits of our products without starting a pissing contest with our competitors.

 

[rebbi]

It's the EL34 amp he's asking about and actually I don't think the question was silly. I simply feel it's best to talk about the merits of our products without starting a pissing contest with our competitors.

Believe me, Doc, I wasn't trying to start any pissing contest! I thoroughly enjoy my Seduction phono stage and i'm really intrigued by the idea of running a SET amplifier with my speakers. I am honestly trying to gather information and educate myself, that's all. I have had a great experience, top to bottom with Bottlehead, and meant no disrespect to the company.

I've pretty much made up my mind to sell my Manley gear and go with a SET amp. Some of the direction I go and will be determined by how much I can get for my current gear on the market. I really can't afford to pour any more money into this purchase at this time. If I am able to fund the Paramount pair as well as the Bee Pre at the same time, and thus receive the 10% discount, that will help.

 

[fullheadofnothing]

I dunno, Dan. We drink a lot of coffee around here. I think we could do pretty well in a pissing contest...