Length of wire needed for C2A

What are you going to do when this ends up not working? We won't be able to help you, and any kind of tech support for an effort like this will consist of us telling you to build these kits in stock form so we can support the product. You are definitely welcome to do something like this, but it's best to post about it when you have it finished/working and you can talk about how you got it to work and the challenges you faced along the way (there will be many). To some degree, if you have the design skills to do something like this in the first place, then you could likely piece things together on your own without needing the support of a manual and an existing layout.

Doc B. once sold a partial kit back in the 90s, and he swore he'd never do it again (for good reasons), so there isn't anything inconsistent between the new owners and the old owners. Doc B. would also suggest that it's probably not a good idea to take two of our more complicated kits and repackage them in this manner with a whole host of non-stock parts.

I've had a lot of stuff like this brought to me over the years with the builder/current owner asking me how to get it to work, and most of the time what's been built would have to be completely deconstructed to end up being useful. Typically the ones that are salvageable are built on plywood as test prototypes and then built into a vinal version once the prototype is operating as expected (which is also often how we develop new products).
I understand your position. After studying the wiring a little more, it seems like it is not possible to externalize the C2A's power supply anyway, or am I wrong? I haven't seen the BP2 in person, unlike you. You think there'd be enough space in the BP2 chassis to integrate a C2A in it (with only one single RCA input and no outputs, no input switches, and no on/off switch)?
 
You really don't want to externalize the entire C2A power supply, as signal current flows through some of it, and you really don't want signal current going through an umbilical (though often I see this detail ignored when I work on tube gear with umbilicals).

There isn't a power transformer that I've ever come across that would power a BeePre 2 and a Crack-a-two-a all at once, so you would have to put both power transformers into one box and to find the space to integrate everything together. The heater current demand for the C2A on its own is pretty substantial, and the BeePre likewise also demands quite a bit, as well as having some separated windings, so it gets very complicated in a huge hurry.
 
This is not my first time discussing things with other humans. I am aware of the fact I can seem quite irritating and weird. I don't want to give that feeling, but it is how it is. I'm not doing it on purpose. With the BeePre I could control overdrive, gain 300b fullness to my sound, and obviously bridge the gap between my weak DAC signal and my output amp. Most DACs have an integrated amp, but I dislike that. Just for clarification, the Beepre is 100% tube, 0% solid state, correct?
 
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The Crack/C2A have enough gain for mobile phone DAC chips to provide a substantial amount of output at the headphone jack (almost 5V), so it still seems odd to want more gain than that, how low is the output of your DAC? Generally a low output DAC means the DAC chip used is intended for mobile devices, and these are optimized for low voltage operation and extremely low power consumption. I wouldn't want to optimize a component around a DAC like this if that happens to be the case.

Overdrive shouldn't even be a word that comes up in this conversation. That would be extremely undesirable unless you're planning to play your guitar into this.
 
The Crack/C2A have enough gain for mobile phone DAC chips to provide a substantial amount of output at the headphone jack (almost 5V), so it still seems odd to want more gain than that, how low is the output of your DAC? Generally a low output DAC means the DAC chip used is intended for mobile devices, and these are optimized for low voltage operation and extremely low power consumption. I wouldn't want to optimize a component around a DAC like this if that happens to be the case.

Overdrive shouldn't even be a word that comes up in this conversation. That would be extremely undesirable unless you're planning to play your guitar into this.
I am not talking about mobile. DAC chips output a relatively weak raw analog signal which requires a buffer amplifier stage. Nearly all complete DAC devices include this built-in amplification. DAC chips for audio typically deliver only a few hundred millivolts up to 2-3V RMS maximum at full scale (0 dBFS) directly from the chip pin, depending on the model and configuration. A following op-amp or buffer stage boosts this to standard line level of about 2V RMS for consumer audio equipment. High-end audio DACs like ESS Sabre or AKM chips commonly target around 1-2.2V RMS before this buffering. The raw DAC chip signal is too low for direct connection to amplifiers, mixers, or active speakers without added gain of 0-12 dB. That's why 99% of consumer DACs integrate an output stage right on the board, making them plug-and-play at line level.

This is AI generated but it brings across my point well enough I believe. If any of it is wrong feel free to correct my understanding.
 
If you're using a current output DAC chip, then you'd want to design/develop an appropriate gainstage to follow that given the specifics of the given DAC chip you intend to use. It is extremely unlikely that you'd want to use a 300B for this application.

If you need to buffer the output of an AKM or ESS chip that is already putting out around 2V, a 300B is also not a great choice for this duty.
 
I think we both want to end this convo. I will leave you alone now. The only thing I would appreciate is if you could tell me whether it would work if I soldered the BeePre2 RCA outputs to the C2A's attenuator and whether you don't see any huge sonic/audio quality issues. I just dont believe that there wouldnt be any improvements with the BP2. Thank you
 
Yes, buffering is sometimes valid. You've mentioned the AD1865. In the voltage output configuration, it puts out 2V of signal at 0.1 ohms, which is everything you could want at the RCA jacks feeding your preamp. If you use the current output configuration, you'll end up with potentially very low output from the DAC chip that doesn't have a ton of drive (maybe 40mV RMS or so), so you'll want a good amount of gain and a buffer stage to follow. Putting a 40mV signal into a 300B and then amplifying that will result in a high noise floor and incredibly microphonics, so I'd suggest looking elsewhere at high mu valves or using an I-V transformer instead.
 
Let’s keep this civil, please.

Tim clearly is passionate about this and I do want him to succeed in his project.
 
I'll play the tedious old guy who thinks he knows everything for a minute. The issue at hand is something I've done all my life. Overthinking the project before you've even started. Unfortunately that isn't how stuff works. Artists talk about the most difficult part of a drawing being putting the first line on the paper. You have to dive into the project, start putting it together and figure it out as you go, finding things that don't work (aka break some shit) and fixing them.

One reason I had a policy of strongly recommending Bottlehead kits (hard to shake saying "our" kits ;)) be built stock is that a completed, functional stock kit is the most stable stepping off point for modifying the kit into whatever you want. Yes, there is more work involved doing it this way. But you gain a much better understanding of how the kit functions and thus why you might want to modify the kit in a particular way - or maybe why you don't.

What goes through our minds as people ask questions about mods is consideration of whether the person asking is really aware of all of the aspects of the design that have made it into the format as delivered. This sounds overly dramatic but there are a lot of years of trial and error involved in a lot of really mundane construction details that have a big influence on noise floor, overall sonics, reliability and cost. Sometimes it's easy to explain, for example a capacitor needs a certain voltage rating for it not to fail. Sometimes it's way more obscure, like the exact orientation of the power transformer and output iron having been positioned based upon their radiated magnetic fields for minimal coupling. That's something you can guess at using theory, but the best answer comes when you test the actual inductors on a chassis where you can move them around and watch the hum on a scope.

That kind of thing - determining optimal function and reliability - requires a pragmatic approach. PJ and I used to chuckle that we kind of balanced each other because he could produce reams of notes clarifying the theory and I could cover the bench with a zillion parts and clip leads to get to the same conclusion by brute force and the occasional sparks. The best result came from our combining these approaches. PB would build anywhere from three to 10 (thinking of the big amp) prototypes with continually evolving solutions to the problems we would discover. The main rule we adhered to on the more difficult problems was to start with a working design, develop a theory for a change, change one thing at a time, and observe the result.

I race motorcycles at Bonneville. If there is one thing you hear in the pits again and again as racers swear and scratch their heads trying to wring out another mile per hour is someone saying to them "just change one thing at a time, so you know whether it's working or not." Same goes for these kits. You can't know if the change you make will result in something that satisfies you unless you try it yourself and only change one thing at a time.

There is another aspect of all of this which after 30 years I consider a minefield. That is recommending what "sounds best" to someone. My conclusion after 30 years is that I have no idea what you might like. I barely know what I might like. The logical conclusion to draw from this is that one has to try stuff themselves instead of listening to what someone else tells them is good for them. The kits offer a starting point for that, which you can take whatever direction you want to suit your own taste. Yes, that exploration will cost you time and money. Nearly everything in life that is worth it will consume a considerable quantity at least one of those things. After 30 years the experience of that exploration is more rewarding to me than the actual items produced. Hopefully Bottlehead customers will embrace that getting your hands a little dirty during the journey is just as important as the destination.
 
I'll play the tedious old guy who thinks he knows everything for a minute. The issue at hand is something I've done all my life. Overthinking the project before you've even started. Unfortunately that isn't how stuff works. Artists talk about the most difficult part of a drawing being putting the first line on the paper. You have to dive into the project, start putting it together and figure it out as you go, finding things that don't work (aka break some shit) and fixing them.

One reason I had a policy of strongly recommending Bottlehead kits (hard to shake saying "our" kits ;)) be built stock is that a completed, functional stock kit is the most stable stepping off point for modifying the kit into whatever you want. Yes, there is more work involved doing it this way. But you gain a much better understanding of how the kit functions and thus why you might want to modify the kit in a particular way - or maybe why you don't.

What goes through our minds as people ask questions about mods is consideration of whether the person asking is really aware of all of the aspects of the design that have made it into the format as delivered. This sounds overly dramatic but there are a lot of years of trial and error involved in a lot of really mundane construction details that have a big influence on noise floor, overall sonics, reliability and cost. Sometimes it's easy to explain, for example a capacitor needs a certain voltage rating for it not to fail. Sometimes it's way more obscure, like the exact orientation of the power transformer and output iron having been positioned based upon their radiated magnetic fields for minimal coupling. That's something you can guess at using theory, but the best answer comes when you test the actual inductors on a chassis where you can move them around and watch the hum on a scope.

That kind of thing - determining optimal function and reliability - requires a pragmatic approach. PJ and I used to chuckle that we kind of balanced each other because he could produce reams of notes clarifying the theory and I could cover the bench with a zillion parts and clip leads to get to the same conclusion by brute force and the occasional sparks. The best result came from our combining these approaches. PB would build anywhere from three to 10 (thinking of the big amp) prototypes with continually evolving solutions to the problems we would discover. The main rule we adhered to on the more difficult problems was to start with a working design, develop a theory for a change, change one thing at a time, and observe the result.

I race motorcycles at Bonneville. If there is one thing you hear in the pits again and again as racers swear and scratch their heads trying to wring out another mile per hour is someone saying to them "just change one thing at a time, so you know whether it's working or not." Same goes for these kits. You can't know if the change you make will result in something that satisfies you unless you try it yourself and only change one thing at a time.

There is another aspect of all of this which after 30 years I consider a minefield. That is recommending what "sounds best" to someone. My conclusion after 30 years is that I have no idea what you might like. I barely know what I might like. The logical conclusion to draw from this is that one has to try stuff themselves instead of listening to what someone else tells them is good for them. The kits offer a starting point for that, which you can take whatever direction you want to suit your own taste. Yes, that exploration will cost you time and money. Nearly everything in life that is worth it will consume a considerable quantity at least one of those things. After 30 years the experience of that exploration is more rewarding to me than the actual items produced. Hopefully Bottlehead customers will embrace that getting your hands a little dirty during the journey is just as important as the destination.
My father told me how his instructor told him in the exam that he should "simply beginn", because my father still hadn't put a line on the paper after half an hour
 
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