Help deciding between Moreplay and BeePre2

[ambd1]

Hi all,

I am newbie in this forum, I am from VA. I would like to ask your help deciding between these two very well regarded tube preamplifiers, Moreplay and BeePre2.

My current system is a digital streamer going into a Mini DSP Flex, and the Mini DSP sending a full signal to a Rythmik subwoofer and sending a high pass signal with PEQ to a Apollon NCx500 amplifier, and then to a pair of NHT C3 speakers (6 ohm, 84 db). I also have a technics turntable with a phono preamplifier going into the Mini DSP via RCA.

My speaker cable is Duelund DCA16Ga
My ICS are all Belden 8492 (Yazaki style)

My plan is to place either the Moreplay or the BeePre2 between the Mini DSP and the Apollon amplifier, in that case the signal going to the subwoofer will not be affected by the tube preamplifier. Or, not ideal, I could place the tube preamplifier right before the Mini DSP (working as a proper preamplifier) and sending one pair of RCAs to the Mini DSP and then into the Apollon amplifier.

The input impedance of the Apollon amplifier is 50K
The input impedance of the Mini DSP Flex via RCA is 100K
The Apollon has 4 gain settings, I use it in third setting, but with the gain of the tube preamplifier I could use the second gain setting.

What I am looking for is to add a good amount of tube sound to this system. The Apollon Class D amplifier presents a wide solid soundstage, but vocals and strings do not have the best tone, neither 3d presence, and the sound all in all, is somehow cold and sometimes harsh in the midrange.

So, I would like what preamplifier, between the Moreplay or the BeePre2, would provide more of that tube sound and presence?

I can surely put together any of those two kits, with patience and time. I can solder, I do my own cables and I have done other type of more simple kits before.

As context, my experience with tube amplifiers is not small. I used to have a Conrad Johnson MV50, a 300B SET custom made amp, a 45 SET custom made amp, and a custom made DHT preamplifier around 6v6 (which unfortunately had some microphonic issues).

I just would like to bring some of that 3d imaging and amazing tube midrange to my current setup.

Thanks a lot for your time!!

Alan Brain

 

[Paul Birkeland]

Ideally you would present either of these preamps with your full source signal for optimal SNR.  I'm guessing you plan to continue using the Mini DSP for level control?

If you put the preamp where you are wanting to, you'll lose the source selection ability, so that could be a major downside. 

I think I'd lean toward the Moreplay for what you're talking about, as it's going to give a stronger tube flavoring and be easier to move around in your system.  You also don't have to feed anything that's a particularly demanding load, so the advantages of the BeePre upgrades there aren't as meaningful.

 

[ambd1]

Ideally you would present either of these preamps with your full source signal for optimal SNR.  I'm guessing you plan to continue using the Mini DSP for level control?

If you put the preamp where you are wanting to, you'll lose the source selection ability, so that could be a major downside. 

I think I'd lean toward the Moreplay for what you're talking about, as it's going to give a stronger tube flavoring and be easier to move around in your system.  You also don't have to feed anything that's a particularly demanding load, so the advantages of the BeePre upgrades there aren't as meaningful.

Thanks. I think you are right in that I do not need to feed anything with a demanding load. Also, in terms of gain, the Mini DSP Flex (working as preamp and crossover now) puts out 2 volts. And with that, and the third gain setting in the Apollon amplifier I am more than fine. So, taking this into account, your rationale about the Moreplay being a better fit for my needs makes sense.

I use the Mini DSP for several functions. I use it as crossover to send a high pass signal to amplifier for mains and full signal to the active subwoofer. I also use it to do some parametric EQ to the signal going to the mains, and also as a DAC. Since the Mini DSP has also a remote that control the 2V output, I use it as a preamplifier.

If I put the tube preamplifier before the Mini DSP which, as you suggest, I would need to connect a DAC to the tube preamplifier and remove the Mini DSP from DAC functions. If I put the tube preamplifier after the Mini DSP, since the Mini DSP is sending a high pass signal to amplifier for mains and a full signal to subwoofer, then the signal for the subwoofer will not be affected by the tube preamplifier.

I could try both positions and see how it sounds better. But I surely would prefer to have less components in the system.

 

[hmbscott]

My current system is similar to yours in a couple of respects, and maybe my experience will be of some value. My digital steamer is feeding a DAC and my turntable feeds a phono-pre. The DAC and phono-pre both feed my Moreplay. The Moreplay outs feeds a 6-channel EQ. Everything up to this point is single-ended. The EQ's balanced outs feed a Hypex Nilai 500 Stereo Amp, which only has balanced input. The Nilai speaker outs feed my subwoofers speaker level inputs, and its speaker outs feed my speakers.

Regarding the pairing of the Moreplay with Class D, well it's superb. I also have a pair of ACA Class A monoblocks, 15W/channel. I prefer the Nilia to the ACA's.

 

[ambd1]

My current system is similar to yours in a couple of respects, and maybe my experience will be of some value. My digital steamer is feeding a DAC and my turntable feeds a phono-pre. The DAC and phono-pre both feed my Moreplay. The Moreplay outs feeds a 6-channel EQ. Everything up to this point is single-ended. The EQ's balanced outs feed a Hypex Nilai 500 Stereo Amp, which only has balanced input. The Nilai speaker outs feed my subwoofers speaker level inputs, and its speaker outs feed my speakers.

Regarding the pairing of the Moreplay with Class D, well it's superb. I also have a pair of ACA Class A monoblocks, 15W/channel. I prefer the Nilia to the ACA's.

Thanks for sharing your experience! I appreciate it and it is very helpful.

We, indeed, have a similar system in some elements in the chain. As I mentioned in my last post, I can try both ways and see what sounds better: either place the Moreplay (as you have it) before the EQ (in my case that would be before the Mini DSP Flex), or place it right after the Mini DSP. Each option has its own pros and cons that I would need to explore once the Moreplay is ready.

So, it seems, according to your experience, that the Moreplay is the way to go. In your case, was the Nilai a bit harsh without the Moreplay in the chain? How much did the sound change with the Moreplay in chain? and how did it change?

Thanks,

Alan

 

[hmbscott]

Well, the Nilia is the latest addition so it's only seen duty with the Moreplay Preamp. While the Nilia has yet to be widely reviewed, it's gaining a reputation for being relatively laid back and smooth, for a Class D. I was interested in trying Class D with my Moreplay based on this thread, which might be of interest to you: https://forum.bottlehead.com/index.php?topic=15040.msg136232#msg136232 . I started looking for a good but not crazy expensive (<$1500) class D amp and ran across Alpha Audio's shoot out video that included the Nilia: https://www.youtube.com/live/NdZFAWe1Nxo?si=M8GmQq_vLfJuMTLX . Based on that video, listening to it using headphones, I felt the Nilia had the better sound, fairly close to Alpha Audio's reference amp, the Pass Labs X150.8. Listening to it might give you a sense of the Nilia's character compared to the much more expensive Pass Labs class A/B, and to class D Purifi and ICEpower.

I do have a solid state Schiit Saga preamp that was replaced by the Moreplay. I have been meaning to put it back in for comparison with my Moreplay. I will set that up in the next day or two and report back.

As a side note, I happen to have two Moreplays that I built at the same time, as an experiment to try to determine whether or not the upgrades are audible. One is stock and the other is heavily upgraded (pics attached). I have compared them and I have to admit that the stock unit is difficult to distinguish from the upgrade.

 

[ambd1]

Well, the Nilia is the latest addition so it's only seen duty with the Moreplay Preamp. While the Nilia has yet to be widely reviewed, it's gaining a reputation for being relatively laid back and smooth, for a Class D. I was interested in trying Class D with my Moreplay based on this thread, which might be of interest to you: https://forum.bottlehead.com/index.php?topic=15040.msg136232#msg136232 . I started looking for a good but not crazy expensive (<$1500) class D amp and ran across Alpha Audio's shoot out video that included the Nilia: https://www.youtube.com/live/NdZFAWe1Nxo?si=M8GmQq_vLfJuMTLX . Based on that video, listening to it using headphones, I felt the Nilia had the better sound, fairly close to Alpha Audio's reference amp, the Pass Labs X150.8. Listening to it might give you a sense of the Nilia's character compared to the much more expensive Pass Labs class A/B, and to class D Purifi and ICEpower.

I do have a solid state Schiit Saga preamp that was replaced by the Moreplay. I have been meaning to put it back in for comparison with my Moreplay. I will set that up in the next day or two and report back.

As a side note, I happen to have two Moreplays that I built at the same time, as an experiment to try to determine whether or not the upgrades are audible. One is stock and the other is heavily upgraded (pics attached). I have compared them and I have to admit that the stock unit is difficult to distinguish from the upgrade.

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. Where did you buy the Nilai? Did you bought it already assembled or in kit form? I am considering returning the Hypex (still have a couple of days) and ordering a Nilai, but not sure where.

 

[hmbscott]

I bought the Hypex Nilai 500 Stereo Amplifier DIY Kit from Deer Creek Audio. https://deercreekaudio.com/products/ols/products/hypex-nilai-500-stereo-amplifier

The kit takes maybe an hour to assemble. No soldering required.

 

[hmbscott]

I just remembered your first post mentioned the Apollon adjustable gain. The Nilia has three gain settings, 12, 22, and 28 dB. The Moreplay offers about 9 dB of gain if I recall correctly. I'm using the 12 dB setting on the Nilia and have built in a 3dB pad on my Moreplay to reduce its gain a bit too. My speakers are pretty high efficiency so I don't want a lot of gain.

 

[ambd1]

I just remembered your first post mentioned the Apollon adjustable gain. The Nilia has three gain settings, 12, 22, and 28 dB. The Moreplay offers about 9 dB of gain if I recall correctly. I'm using the 12 dB setting on the Nilia and have built in a 3dB pad on my Moreplay to reduce its gain a bit too. My speakers are pretty high efficiency so I don't want a lot of gain.

Thanks for sharing where you got the Nilai. I think that I will keep the NCx500 for now since it is pretty good at what it does. Also, in another forum, somebody who has more than 4 Class D amplifiers of this same caliber said that they all need tons of break in, at least 150 hours. And I sort of believe him. Although, I read somewhere that even Hypex said that their amplifier modules do not need break in. 

As I move along and improve the sound, I may get a kit for the Nilai from Deer Creek, but I will have to talk to them for a Dual Mono option since my current speakers are only 84db so I would need the extra power the Dual Mono has.

It is very good to know that the stock Moreplay sounds very similar to the upgraded Moreplay. Does the upgraded Moreplay has just better capacitors and resistors? or the upgraded version has a different schematic with a more complex wiring?

Thanks for sharing all this valuable information with me.

 

[joralieu]

Hmbscot, what are the knobs on your modded moreplay?

 

[Mucker]

hmbscott .... you need to enter those modded kits into some type of contest .... all are just awesome!

 

[Paul Birkeland]

If you want some help laying out boxes with L-brackets, that opens up a lot of possibilities.

 

[hmbscott]

Paul, I have been admiring your build portfolio. I've reviewed it several times after I discovered it. You sir are an artist! I may take you up on that someday. (edit: I'm a little red faced Paul, I just realized your comment probably wasn't aimed at me, nevertheless I may hit you up for advice some day).

joralieu, I bought four different types and decided I liked these the best: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08L4XYYFV/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Mucker, your kind words are much appreciated!

Thanks, Scott

 

[hmbscott]

In your case, was the Nilai a bit harsh without the Moreplay in the chain? How much did the sound change with the Moreplay in chain? and how did it change?

Alan,

This evening I hooked my Saga back up and did some listening comparing it and the Moreplay. Cable swapping isn't ideal, and results are interesting enough that I want set them up for up for a proper A/B test. My initial impression is that the differences are not enormous, but may be audible. With the Saga in the chain, the treble region is sharper/harder, but not exactly harsh. I noticed this with a couple of songs with high-pitched, high-volume content, Numb on Portshead's Dummy Album and Adele's Hello on her 25 album. Sound stage and imaging are similar. I was surprised that the Saga is as sweet sounding as it is, which is why I want to do proper A/B testing.

 

[ambd1]

Alan,

This evening I hooked my Saga back up and did some listening comparing it and the Moreplay. Cable swapping isn't ideal, and results are interesting enough that I want set them up for up for a proper A/B test. My initial impression is that the differences are not enormous, but may be audible. With the Saga in the chain, the treble region is sharper/harder, but not exactly harsh. I noticed this with a couple of songs with high-pitched, high-volume content, Numb on Portshead's Dummy Album and Adele's Hello on her 25 album. Sound stage and imaging are similar. I was surprised that the Saga is as sweet sounding as it is, which is why I want to do proper A/B testing.

Thanks for comparing the sound with the Saga and with the Moreplay in the system. Your experience is really interesting and, for me at least, somehow unexpected as I have read in many forums that the Saga did not bring much to the sound in comparison with a real tube preamplifier, such as the Moreplay. But, as you mentioned, you may need to properly set up an A/B test (taking careful account of gain in both cases) to have a confirmation. I exchanged some emails with Schitt technical people some weeks ago, and they confirm that according to their experience, their tube device that could bring more ¨tube¨ sound to a given system is their Freya +.

 

[hmbscott]

I did a bit of AB testing and the Saga sounds great! I don't hear even a hint of harshness. If I had never listened to the Moreplay I would be totally satisfied with pairing it to the Nilia.

While the differences are subtle, they add up. The Moreplay is more immersive, engaging, and less fatiguing, but it's not soft or mellow. Percussion is sharp, startling, tight. Subtle texture is more distinct and voices better articulated. Instruments are more full and musical especially noticeable with piano, guitar, and bells. High volume high pitched passages are smoother, sweeter, less shrill. It gets me a little closer to experiencing a performance rather than hearing a recording.

 

[ambd1]

Thanks for doing the AB testing. It is very helpful. Kudos to the Saga, but surely the Moreplay had to produce a more engaging sound. Then, the Moreplay it is for me.

Having said that, I did overlook a complex issue in my system and I would like to ask your help with ideas on how to solve it.

As I explained, I have a Mini DSP being used as DAC, source selector and also crossover, sending one low pass signal with EQ to the subwoofer via RCA, and one high pass signal with EQ to the NCx500 amplifier via RCA, for the main speakers.  And surely, I control the volume of the whole system with the MiniDSP volume knob. This knob controls the 2 volt max of both RCA outputs, at the output stage, going from 0 to 2 volts.

In order to introduce some tube sound without much complications, the ideal place for the tube preamplifier would be after the Mini DSP. But, in this case, the problem is that the tube preamplifier will not receive a full signal level but rather a signal going from 0 volts to 1.4 volts (because the MiniDSP is controlling the volume through the volts in its RCA output).

So, the input signal received by the tube preamplifier will vary depending on the volume. And I think that is not what a preamp expects, since most preamplifiers are designed to receive input signals with a predefined voltage and control the output signal to the power amplifier by adjusting the gain of the preamplifier stages.

In short, at low or mid listening levels, the signal sent from the MiniDSP to the preamplifier will be too weak and will probably degrade SNR and distortion performance in the tube preamplifier.

If, on the other hand, I place the tube preamplifier before the MiniDSP, I would need the tube preamplifier to have all the input sources I need, since it would act a source selector, but it would also need to be a unity gain preamplifier of some sorts, because the RCA input of the MiniDSP cannot take more than 2 volts.

I am thinking (but most likely I am missing something) that my best option may be to find, commission, or build a unity gain tube preamplifier with as many sources as I need.

 

[Paul Birkeland]

If, on the other hand, I place the tube preamplifier before the MiniDSP, I would need the tube preamplifier to have all the input sources I need, since it would act a source selector, but it would also need to be a unity gain preamplifier of some sorts, because the RCA input of the MiniDSP cannot take more than 2 volts.

This is what you want to do.  2V is a pretty hefty amount of signal and the Moreplay doesn't have a whole ton of gain.  You can also add a couple of resistors to the volume control if you need to in order to set the gain to unity.

 

[ambd1]

This is what you want to do.  2V is a pretty hefty amount of signal and the Moreplay doesn't have a whole ton of gain.  You can also add a couple of resistors to the volume control if you need to in order to set the gain to unity.

Thanks Paul. Yes, you are right, that would be probably the ideal scenario and if the Moreplay is close to unity gain then that is great.

In this scenario, the Mini DSP will receive around 2V or bit less from the Moreplay, and it will work as a EQ, crossover, and master volume control for the whole system. Also, in this scenario, my gain structure on the amplifier side will stay the same, which I like a lot.

I am not so good at modifying schematics but I can ask for advice here on how to deal with those resistors when the time comes. My sources are just two: DAC (together with bluetooth in the same device) and the phono preamplifier coming from turntable. In that regard, the Moreplay has two sources input or just one?