Eros Output Caps

[Grainger49]

Long before ordering an Eros, maybe 2 years before, I ordered and broke in 4- 0.22uF 600V KK Teflon caps.  The design output cap for Eros is 0.47uF so 0.44, a pair in parallel, is close enough not to make a bit of difference.  In the thread where Paully and I discussed this possibility Paul Joppa suggested that I try one 0.22uF per channel at first.  The thought being that there would not be an audible difference in the bass extension in most rooms and systems.

I PMd Paul Joppa today to tell him he was right.  I also emailed Paully.  He also has a quad of the KK Teflons. 

I finally started to tweak my Eros after 5 months.  I just didn't want to remove it from my system to make modifications.

Here is the bottom line on the KKs.  They have an obviously improved presence, more "body" in the body (can I copyright that phrase?), over the stock Solen caps.  They have a smoother, maybe more extended highs.  Transients are improved.  And two of them per channel seems to smear the image a little so I'm listening to one per channel. 

A quick and dirty run down, the 0.22uF 600V KK Teflon is an improvement.  I challenge you to hear an improvement in your bass end with two of them per channel.  Our rooms and system response, well most of ours, is not enough to show the improvement.

The next step is to insert the already burned in (3 weeks) Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil caps. (pause while I swap and listen) 

Makes you think when swapping alligator clip jumpers on a 400V circuit.  Well, makes me think, I have a pacemaker.

The Mundorf are more relaxed (and more recently broken in, that might matter, might not).  The picks on strings are more present and apparent.  The flutes now have wood around them (listening to El Condor Pasa and the flutes in Urubamba are wooden flutes).  Bass is extremely tight (this is the remastered Japanese pressing I received recently). 

So Long Frank Lloyd Wright is so realistic you can see what color shirt Paul is wearing.  This is another improvement in the midrange.  I couldn't pass up the possibility to get these when Parts ConneXion put them on sale recently.

So with this cap, you do get what you pay for.  But the KK Teflons are cheap and beat out many caps under $40 each.

Just for yucks I put in some KK PIO 2.2uF 400V caps.  I bought a bunch of them several years ago.  They are awfully good for the price!  These were awaiting installation in my second set of Minimus 7 crossovers.  They are parallel combinations of 2.2uF caps, so they are 4.4uF.  There was no increase in bass over the 0.22uF KK Teflon.  But they are surprisingly good sounding.  Definitely better for me than the stock Solen.  The stock Solen is not a bad cap by any measure.

Here is a link to some similar KK PIO for anyone who wants to fool around with KK PIO caps (link changed to K75-10 PIO):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/260995030413?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

BTW, there is no way for me to go back to the Solens.  I removed the first one in the listening room and can't find it any more. 

Some time in the next year I might stumble across it.  Things go into some black hole that doesn't spit them out for months in my house.  Yours might be the same.

Edit: I found it.  It wasn't there before so it came back through the black hole today.

 

[galyons]

Hi Grainger!

I am a little confused.  The eBay link is to Russian K42's which are metalized polypropylene in oil. (Very similar the the Mundorfs).  There is a Russian 0.22uf 600v Teflon cap, it is an FT3. They sound divine! They are rather huge by comparison to the K42's. 

You might want to also try Russian k40Y9, .You can find them in .22,.33 and .47uf as well as 200V, 400V and 630V. The K40's are aluminum film with paper in oil.  Though the K40's are getting more scarce.  The K40 is the "gold standard" of Russian PIO's more like Vitamin Q's, just a bit more detailed. 

Cheers,
Geary

 

[Grainger49]

Yup, mine that are playing now say K75-24.  The title of the ebay auction says "0.22 uF 500 V PIO Capacitors K42Y-2" which made me think they were Paper In Oil (PIO), since the title says so.  I changed the link to some K75-10 PIO. 

Some other information I have gathered says a K75 with no other numbers is Polypropylene in oil.  But K75-10, -15, -17, -24, -25 and -28 are "PIO" caps.  I am thinking it is paper not polypropylene in oil.  The page I'm looking at mentions a K42U-2, the only K42, and calls it a PIO.

I have listened to some old Vitamin Q caps, they didn't float my boat.  They also could have been damaged too.

The KK Teflon caps in the OP are FT-3 and are 4 times the size of the stock Solen PP Film caps.  See the picture below.

 

[Grainger49]

I found the lost Solen taken out this week.  Comparing to the  that were playing the Solen is not as clear in the mids and highs.  The violins lose the resinous character they had with the KK caps.  The KK K75-24 would be a great first step up for anyone with an Eros.

 

[Roger]

Long before ordering an Eros, maybe 2 years before, I ordered and broke in 4 0.22uF 600V KK Teflon caps.  The design output is 0.47uF so 0.44 for a pair in parallel is close enough not to make a bit of difference.  In the thread where I figured this out Paul Joppa suggested that I try one 0.22uF at first.  The thought being that there would not be an audible difference in the bass extension.

I PMd Paul today to tell him he was right.  I also emailed Paully.  He has a quad of the KK Teflons.  

I finally started to tweak my Eros after 5 months of not wanting to remove it from my system.

Here is the bottom line on the KKs.  They have an obviously improved presence, more "body" in the body, over the Solen caps.  They have a smoother, maybe more extended highs.  Transients are improved.  And two of them per channel seems to smear the image a little so I'm listening to one per channel.  

Quick and dirty the 0.22uF 600V KK Teflon is an improvement and I challenge you to hear an improvement in your bass end with two of them per channel.

The next step is to insert the already burned in (3 weeks) Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil caps. (pause while I swap and listen)  

Makes you think when swapping alligator clip jumpers on a 400V circuit.

The Mundorf are more relaxed.  The picks on strings are more present and apparent.  The flutes now have wood around them (listening to El Condor Pasa).  Bass is extremely tight (this is the remastered Japanese pressing I received recently).  

So Long Frank Lloyd Wright is so realistic you can see what color shirts they are wearing.  This is another improvement in the midrange.  I couldn't pass up the possibility to get these when Parts ConneXion put them on sale recently.

So with this cap, you do get what you pay for.  But the KK Teflons are cheap and beat out many caps under $50 each.

BTW, there is no way for me to go back to the Solens.  I removed the first one in the listening room and can't find it any more.  Some time in the next year I might stumble across it.  Things go into some black hole that doesn't spit them out for months in my house.  Yours might be the same.

Just for yucks I put in some KK PIO 2.2uF 500V caps.  I bought a bunch of them several years ago.  They are awfully good!  Excellent in pairs for Minimus 7 crossovers.

Here is a link to those for anyone who wants to fool around with caps:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/0-22-uF-500-V-PIO-Capacitors-K42Y-2-Set-of-30-New-/310389100773?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4844a1d0e5

Have you tried the Mundorf Silver/oil. Personally I prefer those to most other caps, and cheaper.
Roger

 

[Grainger49]

Roger,

I believe that, Silver/Oil, is what is in my FP 2 now.  I went with S/G/O because of the high discount of the sale.

Are you saying you have tried Silver/Gold/Oil and prefer the Silver/Oil?

 

[galyons]

Yup, mine that are playing now say K75-24.  The title of the ebay auction says "0.22 uF 500 V PIO Capacitors K42Y-2" which made me think they were Paper In Oil (PIO), since the title says so.  Some other information I have gathered says a K75 with no other numbers is Polypropylene in oil.  But K75-10, -15, -17, -25 and -28 are "PIO" caps.  I am thinking it is paper not polypropylene in oil.  The page I'm looking at only mentions a K42U-2. And calls it a PIO.

I have listened to some old Vitamin Q caps, they didn't float my boat.  They could have been damaged too.

Yes, I know it is confusing.  "PIO" sells caps, whether or not they are strictly "Paper in Oil", well caveat emptor!  I have been building/rebuilding/modding tube amps & preamps for years.  There is very little out there in caps that can beat the Russian caps for sonics and build quality.  The caps that get somewhat close carry hefty price tags. Unfortunately, often those hefty price tags reflect marketing rather than value!! The old audiophilia nervousa, if it costs more it MUST be better!!

Cheers,
Geary

 

[Noskipallwd]

Glad you finally got a fix for those cap cravings Grainger. Cap withdrawls can be a B***h. Interesting about the russian caps, glad they are working well. As far as the Mundorf S/Os vs. S/O/Gs, I have only had one chance to listen critically to both types in the same circuit. To my ears there is a small difference, so minute that I can't define exactly what that difference was, I preferred the S/Os though. However, the sound signature quality that you deem most important, (soundstage), was virtually identical between the two cap types to my ears. Slightly off topic, I listened to some metal today through the Eros, System of A Down, 'Toxicity' through tubes and full-range drivers. Very interesting.

Cheers,
Shawn

 

[Grainger49]

Shawn,

I guess the comparison shows the depth of my depravity.  At first I intended to replace the Solen with the KK Teflons.  Then the cap sale came to my attention and I bought the Mundorfs.  The KK "PIO" were just sitting on the work table, so late in the day they came upstairs to see if they were at all worthy of the Eros.  Never mind the drawers and drawers of capacitors still down there that I didn't drag upstairs.

My first thought was to use the Teflon because of the excellent, clear, present Teflon sound.  It adds a clarity other caps don't have.  The midrange is tactile with Teflon.  But then the sale came along and since I have been very happy with the Mundorfs in my FP 2 I went for S/G/O. 

The biggest surprise was how good the cheap KK PIO sounded.  I bought 20 of them about 8 years ago for ~$15 delivered.  The prices have gone up.  Today you can get 4 for ~$21 delivered.  They have been discovered, no more secrets.

Whether you listen to metal or string quartets a sweet sounding tubed system can really make a difference.  If tubes didn't make a difference all the best guitar players would be using solid state amps, and they are not.

Edit: Just to show how bad my obsession is, I looked through some of the drawers filled with caps including some Wonder Caps from years long gone.  For some reason I have a new, single 1.5uF 630V Solen and a new, single 20uF 400V Solen.  I don't know why I bought them or what they were for.  I usually buy in pairs or more.

 

[Noskipallwd]

Grainger, what value are the PIOs, they get big pretty fast as you go up in value. Another interesting observation about the Russian Caps, PTFE and PIO, is the tight tolerances in the ones I have purchased. No matter what the specs are. I bought a lot of 25 0.1uf teflons, some were 300v and some were 450v, measured on an accurate cap meter they were all within 1.5%. I used PIOs and teflons in my Hagerman CornetII, for the reasons you stated, it needed clarity in the mids and bass, they solved that problem. My Eros with Mundorfs in the RIAA, and output positions has no such problem, though I have to say that 4 .01uf silver/oils per side, (1 each for the .01s and 3 each for the .03s), got a little expensive even with a sale. Almost done with the quickie, I put my Khozmo stepper that I scavenged from the Cavalli Bijou in, cost more than the kit! Why not?

Cheers,
Shawn

 

[Grainger49]

I'll post a picture showing the relative sizes. 

Stock Solen 01.0uF@630V are the tiny black ones
Mundorf S/G/O@800VAC, 1200VDC are the larger black ones
KK Teflons FT-3 0.22uF@600V are the large silver ones
KK PIO K75-24 2.2uF@500V are the green bodied ones 

As posted above I tried both one and 2 KK Teflons per channel, liked one better.  The KK PIOs were already set up, wired in parallel, to go into my second set of Minimus 7s.

 

[Grainger49]

Sadly the arrangement in the above picture is still there.  I have rotated through the 4 sets of caps and each is different and each sounds good.  The system needs to be warmed up for a good comparison.  Even the stock Solen has some nice images. 

I still think the Mundorf S/G/O is the winner followed by the KK Teflon. 

More listening tomorrow.

 

[Paul Joppa]

...  Even the stock Solen has some nice images.  ...

Heh heh, yeah the Solens can creep up on you. Some say they take as long as the teflons to sound their best; n any case the process (after the first 20 hours or so) is slow and undramatic.

Thanks for the careful, long-term reporting. We often say "...the difference is not subtle" but evaluating the difference can be a long slog, getting past first impressions of Different to later impressions of Better.

 

[Noskipallwd]

This might be better served in it's own thread, but I will ask anyway. What is the science behind the long burn-in for caps with Teflon dielectric?

Cheers,
Shawn

 

[ALEXZ]

Grainger,
Could you please describe your testing  environment (hardware /software) and procedures.  It

 

[Grainger49]

Alex,

Let's start with my personal mantra (often posted in the Bottlehead threads).  Capacitors, wire and tubes are a matter of personal taste.  Capacitors are much like spicing.  Do you like habanero peppers, bell peppers or ancho peppers?  We each look for different things in our playback.

The #1 thing for me is soundstage followed by clear clean highs.  But the highs are where I have my hearing loss (isn't it always in the highs?).  Ask PJ who worked around jet engines!  We, he and I, know what loud is!

My system is in my signature, no reason to duplicate it here.  My room is 24' long and 14' wide.  The speakers are about 1/3 of the way into the room and my chair about 1/3 of the way from the back wall.  So a rule of thirds.  The speakers are well away from any wall.  I use a BA sub and fill in my hearing loss with super tweeters.  Software, the music I'm listening to is detailed in the posts (I think, isn't it?).

I have soldered a pair of wires on the terminals where each of the Solen caps were.  Those wires come out and I attach the capacitors with the jumpers.  Look at the picture in reply #10.  I know what I am listening to but I'm pretty experienced at listening.  I started this in the 60s.  I can only report what I hear, not what anyone else hears.

Going back this is what I have said about the KK PIO:

"...they are surprisingly good sounding.  Definitely better for me than the stock Solen."

"Comparing to the KK K75-24 that were playing the Solen is not as clear in the mids and highs."  Not that the highs were the best, just better and more detailed than the Solen.

If I have conveyed that the KK PIO are as good as the Mundorf, that is wrong.  The Mundorf caps sound the best.  But the PIO are not as bad as I had assumed they would be.  The stock Solen were run in for 2 or 3 weeks while I leisurely built the Eros.  And have remained in there till I started this thread.  So they were completely broken in, as were the KK Teflons.  I think the Teflons sit at second place.

I just went from KK Teflon to KK PIO.  The top end doesn't shimmer like the Teflon.  The midrange is warm and present.  It is kind of seductive.  The bass is good but now as well delineated as with more expensive caps.  But they are very "Tubey" sounding.  Like I say, seductive.

Have I answered all your questions?

 

[ALEXZ]

Thank you.  The reason why I asked about environment is the following, k75 cap is popular remedy to mitigate hardness of SS electronics and digital records. That is right in sync with your description of the "tubes" sound. Objective parameters  of  K75 is plainly awfull, this a 50hz capacitor by design. In my experience, Solen is much more accurately sounding capacitor.
Totally different story with the FT caps, great caps all around.. Well...except size. 
Of course you are right it is all very subjective topics, but I guess the reference point is the sound of the live acoustic instrument, never mind how romantic and golden is the sound of the component, but if it makes cello sounds like it warped in a towel, than probably something's wrong. That was my impression from the k75 capacitors.  Btw, there are also number of reasonably (well...for audio) priced caps in the price range between solens and mundorfs s/g that could give great results, for example dynamicaps, mundorf ZN.

 

[Paul Joppa]

This might be better served in it's own thread, but I will ask anyway. What is the science behind the long burn-in for caps with Teflon dielectric?

Cheers,
Shawn

When you find out, please let everyone else know!  :^)

Seriously, there are a few theories out there, none of which are plausible, and few of which are even testable in any reasonable way. "Reasonable" means without a huge $$$ grant, and with results while we are still around to see them.

My perception, of course!

 

[ALEXZ]

Paul,
Are there any explanations for caps break-in effect ( not teflon, but in general)? For some of them (mundorf s/g  for example)  magnitude of changes is not subtle at all, almost like a speakers.

 

[Noskipallwd]

Considering some of the 'research' that our government has awarded grants for maybe we should apply. Maybe if we tied it in to the research on this field mouse here in Colorado, they got 20 mil. for that.

Cheers,
Shawn