Don't jeopardize my kinder eggs you two!
Customs Problems with the Crack
- Thread starter Jesse0403
- Start date
This is not my field of expertise (I am a German lawyer) but it seems that the CE requirement applies to electronic parts and not just the finished product. Take a look here (apparently, I can't post links, but you'll find it), there is definition below (elektrische Betriebsmittel):
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE-Kennzeichnung
The German Customs office enforces these (European) laws and states that all goods imported into the European Union must comply with European product safety guidelines, even when the goods are imported by private individuals.
zoll.de/DE/Privatpersonen/Postsendungen-Internetbestellungen/Sendungen-aus-einem-Nicht-EU-Staat/Einschraenkungen/Waren/Produktsicherheit/produktsicherheit_node.html
They might not enforce these regulations at all times but as someone who lives in the US and regularly sends gifts back home, I know that more often than not customs hold parcels and have the recipient open them. It's a pain.
The one thing I recommend is that you always ask on what precise basis (Rechtsgrundlage) they hold the parcel. A vague hunch is not enough, they must tell you the law they are enforcing.
I hope I am missing something here because this all sounds so impractical, and I can't imagine how that is supposed to work on a daily basis.
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE-Kennzeichnung
The German Customs office enforces these (European) laws and states that all goods imported into the European Union must comply with European product safety guidelines, even when the goods are imported by private individuals.
zoll.de/DE/Privatpersonen/Postsendungen-Internetbestellungen/Sendungen-aus-einem-Nicht-EU-Staat/Einschraenkungen/Waren/Produktsicherheit/produktsicherheit_node.html
They might not enforce these regulations at all times but as someone who lives in the US and regularly sends gifts back home, I know that more often than not customs hold parcels and have the recipient open them. It's a pain.
The one thing I recommend is that you always ask on what precise basis (Rechtsgrundlage) they hold the parcel. A vague hunch is not enough, they must tell you the law they are enforcing.
I hope I am missing something here because this all sounds so impractical, and I can't imagine how that is supposed to work on a daily basis.
Ok, I dived a bit deeper into this. Looks like SpeedyDad is right.
According to Art. 27 (3) VO (EG) No. 765/2008 also electrical components (elektrische Betriebmittel) need to have a CE-mark.
This guideline was implemented into German law with the Produktsicherheitsgesetzt -ProdSG- (Product Safety Law) and we can find in §7 (3) 2nd sentence ProdSG that products that are not possible to be marked with the CE-logo have to have an addtional document, the CoC. Something like Resistors would be affected by this.
In §9 (3) ProdSG we see the officials at the Zoll have the right to deny access to products with the missing marking or documents.
The guideline 2014/35/EU of the european parlament from the 26th of February of 2014 which replaced the weaker prior requirements tells us what this CoC need to have. This guideline was implemented into German law by the Verordnungen über elektrische Betriebsmittel (regulation of electrical components).
Btw: Guidelines are as the name states just guidelines, but it is required that each EU-member implements them into national law. So, other european countries will have these laws too but they will be named differently.
Back to the CoC. The Verordnung über elektrische Betriebsmittel is again part of the ProdSG.
The guideline 2014/35/EU says that the CoC must include the address of the vendor.
The CoC must of course include a list of all electrical components like the checklist that is included.
The 2011/65/EU includes the requirements for electrical components and mentions the 2006/66/EG which is a guideline for hazardous materials mainly in batteries. At this point I got tired and just looked it up on Wikipedia under the name RoHS-guidelines. But I guess these materials are also forbidden in the US anyways.
Ah, now I come to the "interesting part". You can give 2011/65/EU a read. Art. 7 gives a detailed explanation of the requirements.
Here, it pretty much says everything the CoC needs to have which sounds like more than it actually is. It must be ensured that the components were undergoing some sort of quality control.
The components must have some kind of marking that incicates its type etc. like the stripes on a resistor for example and so on...
Too me it just sounds like the list that was included. The thing that was missing was the address and a title with CoC. Otherwise there are no formal requirements for the format of the CoC.
I am really starting to dislike that official now, although he was technically right.
Edit: I dont want to say that this situation is Bottleheads fault. I think I just had some "Korinthenkacker" (nitpicker) who was controlling the parcel.
According to Art. 27 (3) VO (EG) No. 765/2008 also electrical components (elektrische Betriebmittel) need to have a CE-mark.
This guideline was implemented into German law with the Produktsicherheitsgesetzt -ProdSG- (Product Safety Law) and we can find in §7 (3) 2nd sentence ProdSG that products that are not possible to be marked with the CE-logo have to have an addtional document, the CoC. Something like Resistors would be affected by this.
In §9 (3) ProdSG we see the officials at the Zoll have the right to deny access to products with the missing marking or documents.
The guideline 2014/35/EU of the european parlament from the 26th of February of 2014 which replaced the weaker prior requirements tells us what this CoC need to have. This guideline was implemented into German law by the Verordnungen über elektrische Betriebsmittel (regulation of electrical components).
Btw: Guidelines are as the name states just guidelines, but it is required that each EU-member implements them into national law. So, other european countries will have these laws too but they will be named differently.
Back to the CoC. The Verordnung über elektrische Betriebsmittel is again part of the ProdSG.
The guideline 2014/35/EU says that the CoC must include the address of the vendor.
The CoC must of course include a list of all electrical components like the checklist that is included.
The 2011/65/EU includes the requirements for electrical components and mentions the 2006/66/EG which is a guideline for hazardous materials mainly in batteries. At this point I got tired and just looked it up on Wikipedia under the name RoHS-guidelines. But I guess these materials are also forbidden in the US anyways.
Ah, now I come to the "interesting part". You can give 2011/65/EU a read. Art. 7 gives a detailed explanation of the requirements.
Here, it pretty much says everything the CoC needs to have which sounds like more than it actually is. It must be ensured that the components were undergoing some sort of quality control.
The components must have some kind of marking that incicates its type etc. like the stripes on a resistor for example and so on...
Too me it just sounds like the list that was included. The thing that was missing was the address and a title with CoC. Otherwise there are no formal requirements for the format of the CoC.
I am really starting to dislike that official now, although he was technically right.
Edit: I dont want to say that this situation is Bottleheads fault. I think I just had some "Korinthenkacker" (nitpicker) who was controlling the parcel.
Just to add a data point with regard to importing Bottlehead electronics from the US to Germany: In recent years, I received three separate parcels from Bottlehead, without having problems: Mainline, Bottlehead DAC, Bottlebat, and yet another parcel with transformers from Magnequest. Actually, there was even a fifth parcel, a Crack kit (which Eileen was so kind to let me return unbuilt in order to upgrade straight to the Mainline - thank you so much!). Unfortunately, I do not remember all the details. At least in some cases I had to drive across town to the customs office, open the parcel, explain what was inside and pay import tax. I think the Crack kit was even delivered straight to my door. However, having to drive over to the customs office has happened also with other (non-electronis) articles I ordered from abroad, so that is nothing unusual. FWIW, this was all via the customs office in Munich and between 2014 and 2016.
Wishing you the best of luck! It's worth the wait and effort. The sound is glorious!
Wishing you the best of luck! It's worth the wait and effort. The sound is glorious!
Just a quick update: I found out that the federal network agency (I will call them FNA to make it shorter) has to do a pre-inspection within the next three working days.
There are two possibilities for the outcome:
1. The FNA approves the product and says it is no danger for the european market. In this case I will probably receive the package but the final decision will still be made by the customs. I also think this is by far the most likely outcome.
2. The FNA says that the product is a danger for european customers and cannot be handed to me. In this unlikely case the Bottlehead Crack will be added to some kind of electronic "blacklist" of the EU-customs and can also be destroyed instead of being sent back.
But because I am just privately buying the Crack the FNA is again more likely to approve it.
There are two possibilities for the outcome:
1. The FNA approves the product and says it is no danger for the european market. In this case I will probably receive the package but the final decision will still be made by the customs. I also think this is by far the most likely outcome.
2. The FNA says that the product is a danger for european customers and cannot be handed to me. In this unlikely case the Bottlehead Crack will be added to some kind of electronic "blacklist" of the EU-customs and can also be destroyed instead of being sent back.
But because I am just privately buying the Crack the FNA is again more likely to approve it.
Update:
Ok, I just talked to the customs office: The FNA denied the import of the Crack.
This time the official told me the detailed reasons:
1. No German manual included. They say that "safe first time commissioning is not given".
2. Parts are missing the CE-mark or the CoC. She couldnt tell me which one they meant but I suspect its mainly the cable.
3. Customs/FNA couldnt see who is the manufacturer of the product. +No contact details for the manufacturer given. This was the main reason.
Afterwards I called another official (whom I talked with before about the case) from the FNA who wasnt so strict and promised me she would look into the case. After 45min I get a call back and she says that there is nothing even she could do.
The FNA could have overlooked the cable and the missing CE-mark, but because the address is not given and there is no manual, not even one in english, they cannot give me the parcel.
The official also told me that the customs-official doesnt have to be a nitpicker to notice that and deny handing over the parcel.
Of course I told her that I already downloaded the manual and that the address is included in there. Addtionally there is a CD with the stuff on it, but a CD doesnt count as documents.
Arguing doesnt help and I also didnt try to.
The good thing is: My Crack must not be destroyed, it has got permission to be sent back to the sender. Because of that the Crack also wont be added to this "blacklist". I will receive a form tomorrow where I can either oppose the decision of the FNA or send back or destroy the Crack.
Obviously I will send it back because opposing would mean legal trouble with a lawyer and so on and detroying would be insane.
So, how to avoid this in the future? I also asked the FNA-official this question.
-Dont include an US-plug. In my case it wasnt the reason but customs are allergic to this kind of stuff.
-Print out the manual. I said to her that it wouldnt be possible for a small company to include the manual in all european languages and she said that english is enough because its one of the official languages of the EU. +Put the contact details somewhere where they are easily visible.
I got confirmation from that same offcial that the parts (resistors, cables etc.) themselves dont need any CE/CoC. The reason why this is listed then has to be the plug.
I know that these steps might seem a bit "too much". It seems like I am the first one to have any trouble with this stuff.
Tomorrow I will also receive the report from the FNA. I will post it here and translate some of the key parts. Maybe I forgot to mention a detail or the customs offcial didnt tell me it.
Additionally I will also contact BH support tomorrow and see how we can figure that out.
Ok, I just talked to the customs office: The FNA denied the import of the Crack.
This time the official told me the detailed reasons:
1. No German manual included. They say that "safe first time commissioning is not given".
2. Parts are missing the CE-mark or the CoC. She couldnt tell me which one they meant but I suspect its mainly the cable.
3. Customs/FNA couldnt see who is the manufacturer of the product. +No contact details for the manufacturer given. This was the main reason.
Afterwards I called another official (whom I talked with before about the case) from the FNA who wasnt so strict and promised me she would look into the case. After 45min I get a call back and she says that there is nothing even she could do.
The FNA could have overlooked the cable and the missing CE-mark, but because the address is not given and there is no manual, not even one in english, they cannot give me the parcel.
The official also told me that the customs-official doesnt have to be a nitpicker to notice that and deny handing over the parcel.
Of course I told her that I already downloaded the manual and that the address is included in there. Addtionally there is a CD with the stuff on it, but a CD doesnt count as documents.
Arguing doesnt help and I also didnt try to.
The good thing is: My Crack must not be destroyed, it has got permission to be sent back to the sender. Because of that the Crack also wont be added to this "blacklist". I will receive a form tomorrow where I can either oppose the decision of the FNA or send back or destroy the Crack.
Obviously I will send it back because opposing would mean legal trouble with a lawyer and so on and detroying would be insane.
So, how to avoid this in the future? I also asked the FNA-official this question.
-Dont include an US-plug. In my case it wasnt the reason but customs are allergic to this kind of stuff.
-Print out the manual. I said to her that it wouldnt be possible for a small company to include the manual in all european languages and she said that english is enough because its one of the official languages of the EU. +Put the contact details somewhere where they are easily visible.
I got confirmation from that same offcial that the parts (resistors, cables etc.) themselves dont need any CE/CoC. The reason why this is listed then has to be the plug.
I know that these steps might seem a bit "too much". It seems like I am the first one to have any trouble with this stuff.
Tomorrow I will also receive the report from the FNA. I will post it here and translate some of the key parts. Maybe I forgot to mention a detail or the customs offcial didnt tell me it.
Additionally I will also contact BH support tomorrow and see how we can figure that out.
fullheadofnothing
Moderator
I do not understand what they mean by no contact details given.
On the outside of the package is a mailing label that includes our postal address and telephone number. This label is obviously still with the package, or they wouldn't have your contact information.
The inside of the package has an invoice that includes our postal address, and an inventory sheet. On occasion, these get left out by mistake, but that is rare and I save the paperwork with our copies when it happens (I just checked and it was not there). The inventory sheet is page 8 from the manual. It has as a line item a reference to the downloadable manual - so the existence of the manual is physically documented. It also has an email address, so there a third method of contact. Literally every piece of paper inside/on the package includes the name "Bottlehead" and at least one contact method.
I have emailed pdf copies of both the label and invoice to you.
On the outside of the package is a mailing label that includes our postal address and telephone number. This label is obviously still with the package, or they wouldn't have your contact information.
The inside of the package has an invoice that includes our postal address, and an inventory sheet. On occasion, these get left out by mistake, but that is rare and I save the paperwork with our copies when it happens (I just checked and it was not there). The inventory sheet is page 8 from the manual. It has as a line item a reference to the downloadable manual - so the existence of the manual is physically documented. It also has an email address, so there a third method of contact. Literally every piece of paper inside/on the package includes the name "Bottlehead" and at least one contact method.
I have emailed pdf copies of both the label and invoice to you.
Jesse,
I have read your saga and really feel bad for you....its a grat example of how government gets in the way some of the time...you would think they would be more
open and understandable to things like this.
I sure hope you get to get this amp....best of luck in your struggle.
I wish there was something we could do to help you here.....
All the best
Alex
I have read your saga and really feel bad for you....its a grat example of how government gets in the way some of the time...you would think they would be more
open and understandable to things like this.
I sure hope you get to get this amp....best of luck in your struggle.
I wish there was something we could do to help you here.....
All the best
Alex
Regarding the contact details: I just thought about it and have an idea why they are complaining about this.
I would guess that like 90% of the packages arent bought from the manufacturer itself but from some sort of dealer like Amazon. This way the address on the outside and the address on the invoice wouldnt tell you anything about the manufacturer.
Now the reaction of this dense official is starting to make sense to me!
I guess he thought that you were some sort of dealer and just importing this stuff from China. I actually told him the opposite. Maybe I wasnt clear enough, but I guess these people only hear what they want to hear.
I have to say: What an utter id***!
I would guess that like 90% of the packages arent bought from the manufacturer itself but from some sort of dealer like Amazon. This way the address on the outside and the address on the invoice wouldnt tell you anything about the manufacturer.
Now the reaction of this dense official is starting to make sense to me!
I guess he thought that you were some sort of dealer and just importing this stuff from China. I actually told him the opposite. Maybe I wasnt clear enough, but I guess these people only hear what they want to hear.
I have to say: What an utter id***!
It's great how you take the whole thing because you have every reason to be upset. If you don't mind, feel free to upload their reasoning. Maybe we can glean something from it so Bottlehead can take steps to address the issues German customs have. I can't imagine that it's just the cable, but if that in fact is the sore spot, there would be an easy fix. Did they give you any guidance as to what you should do to properly import the Crack?
I just received it in the mail.
I will translate their reasoning that they stated on page 2. It begins with the sentence after the ticked box:
"Devices which are regulated by the EMVG (Law for the electromagnetic compatibility of electronic devices - EMV-guideline 2004/108/EG) (for example household electronics, electronic tools, lighting devices, IT devices, entertainment electronic):
-The product is missing the CE-mark (EMVG §18)
-The product is missing details about the manufacturer (EMVG §9(2)) or the importer (EMVG §12 (1)). Because of this commisioning is not allowed.
-A German manual is missing (especially with a guide for safe first time commisioning)- thus the manufacturer withholds critical information for the safe and proper use of the product (EMVG §19).
Concluding I ultimately deny your request for release of the goods for free circulation."
I want to go over these quickly.
1.CE-Mark:
It has to be the cable. As said, the official of the Bundesnetzagentur told me that you dont need such documents for parts like cables (without termination), capacitors, resistors and so on.
2.Contact details of the manufacturer:
As I also said before, this is non-sense because the manufacturer is also the sender. Thus you already have the contact details.
3.German manual is missing:
I mean, 99% of the people under the age of 60 can speak English here, so it doesnt have to be in German. Additionally I already have the manual and it is also included on the CD.
Overall the only valid point they have is the cable and I told them on more than one occasion that they can just throw it in the trash.
The rest of the arguments are simply false.
I am already filing a complaint against my customs office. Wont change anything, but I need to tell someone who is responsible there about this idiocy.
I will translate their reasoning that they stated on page 2. It begins with the sentence after the ticked box:
"Devices which are regulated by the EMVG (Law for the electromagnetic compatibility of electronic devices - EMV-guideline 2004/108/EG) (for example household electronics, electronic tools, lighting devices, IT devices, entertainment electronic):
-The product is missing the CE-mark (EMVG §18)
-The product is missing details about the manufacturer (EMVG §9(2)) or the importer (EMVG §12 (1)). Because of this commisioning is not allowed.
-A German manual is missing (especially with a guide for safe first time commisioning)- thus the manufacturer withholds critical information for the safe and proper use of the product (EMVG §19).
Concluding I ultimately deny your request for release of the goods for free circulation."
I want to go over these quickly.
1.CE-Mark:
It has to be the cable. As said, the official of the Bundesnetzagentur told me that you dont need such documents for parts like cables (without termination), capacitors, resistors and so on.
2.Contact details of the manufacturer:
As I also said before, this is non-sense because the manufacturer is also the sender. Thus you already have the contact details.
3.German manual is missing:
I mean, 99% of the people under the age of 60 can speak English here, so it doesnt have to be in German. Additionally I already have the manual and it is also included on the CD.
Overall the only valid point they have is the cable and I told them on more than one occasion that they can just throw it in the trash.
The rest of the arguments are simply false.
I am already filing a complaint against my customs office. Wont change anything, but I need to tell someone who is responsible there about this idiocy.
Attachments
Update from the German customs
Today I was able to receive my crack from the customs. They had sent fotos of the parts (including the tubes) to the BUNDESNETZAGENTUR. Their conclusion was that the US power cord is not importable and must be deleted. This was okay for me and I gladly received the rest of the kit. They did not give me their internal communication with the BUNDESNETZAGENTUR but on my short view there was written that there was no documentation, but in my case this was not crucial.
Best wishes
Pohly
btw I payed about 20% taxes not only on the kit but also on the 150$ shipping fee. I.e. about 180$ for shipping only..
Today I was able to receive my crack from the customs. They had sent fotos of the parts (including the tubes) to the BUNDESNETZAGENTUR. Their conclusion was that the US power cord is not importable and must be deleted. This was okay for me and I gladly received the rest of the kit. They did not give me their internal communication with the BUNDESNETZAGENTUR but on my short view there was written that there was no documentation, but in my case this was not crucial.
Best wishes
Pohly
btw I payed about 20% taxes not only on the kit but also on the 150$ shipping fee. I.e. about 180$ for shipping only..
Alright, I am starting to think they are just pranking me.
I mean, the same product is presented to the same authority and the decisions are completely different, although the circumstances are identical (they told me that they also sent a photo of the contents). These people really dont seem to know what they are doing.
Dont get me wrong Pohly, I am glad that you could receive your Crack but it makes me understand my situation even less.
I mean, the same product is presented to the same authority and the decisions are completely different, although the circumstances are identical (they told me that they also sent a photo of the contents). These people really dont seem to know what they are doing.
Dont get me wrong Pohly, I am glad that you could receive your Crack but it makes me understand my situation even less.
Isn't the CE certification required for every single part? That was my understanding. The other points they make are problematic, I agree. The underlying regulations are mainly thought to protect the consumer, who in this case does not need protecting. I think an argument could be made that except for the actual technical issues (electromagnetic compliance, etc.) the regulation is designed for a different scenario (a third party importing electronic products that will then be sold on the European market to consumers). You could probably try to fight it if you think it's worth your time. Sorry you are dealing with this.
Yeah, after re-reading their arguments it also came to my mind that they are mostly wrong or weak.
I wrote an "Einspruch" a day after the I got the letter (see down below). I know that this is not very well written (I corrected the typos before sending it) but maybe it will be enough to convince them.
And I was also thinking, the CE-mark has to be on every electrical component. The official from the Bundesnetzagentur told me that this not the case though. So my guess is the reason why they still list it as an argument has to be the cable.
I wrote an "Einspruch" a day after the I got the letter (see down below). I know that this is not very well written (I corrected the typos before sending it) but maybe it will be enough to convince them.
And I was also thinking, the CE-mark has to be on every electrical component. The official from the Bundesnetzagentur told me that this not the case though. So my guess is the reason why they still list it as an argument has to be the cable.
Attachments
I just got a response for my objection and of course it has been denied again.
On the positive side I can now confirm the reason that lead to this decision. I will include the letter that I received.
The only point that was made here is that I need a manual in German. The official said that there was no way I could import the good without this and because the German manual is missing it is obvious "that the manufacturer doesnt intend the product to be used outside the US". Of course I dont agree with this.
I was thinking about translating the whole manual myself and sending it to him but this would be too much work and would also be uncertain, if I get my parcel in this case.
On the positive side I can now confirm the reason that lead to this decision. I will include the letter that I received.
The only point that was made here is that I need a manual in German. The official said that there was no way I could import the good without this and because the German manual is missing it is obvious "that the manufacturer doesnt intend the product to be used outside the US". Of course I dont agree with this.
I was thinking about translating the whole manual myself and sending it to him but this would be too much work and would also be uncertain, if I get my parcel in this case.
Attachments
Similar threads
