Bottleneck DIY speaker wire comparison (MD/VA/DC/DE/PA)

R

RayP

New member
It looks like our next meet will be at Steve's place in Sterling VA on the last weekend in October (27 or 28). The details are still being confirmed and we may be in the local community hall but keep the date in mind.

I have been following a thread about speaker wires that has been interesting.
http://www.bottlehead.com/smf/index.php/topic,3232.0.html

The topic has inspired us to have a speaker wire comparison day to see what factors really matter.

My initial thoughts are that each of us who brings cables will bring two pair of cables. They will need to be exactly the same except for one parameter.

For example, same copper, same gauge, same topology, same length, different insulation. We would then do a blind test to see if we can hear a difference.

This is not a competition to see who has the best cables. For example, the other thread mentioned barbed wire so I started to wonder about it. I will be bringing a pair of ordinary copper wire cables. I will also bring another pair of cables that are exactly the same except there will be barbs on them to lift them above the floor. Will we hear a difference? I don't have a clue but we will find out. Will they sound like crap, quite possibly, but will one pair sound crappier than the other?

We will specify the length of cable when the listening venue is established. We will also specify how the termination is to be done in case we do want to do further comparisons. I am leaning towards no termination at all, just bare wire(s) but am open to suggestions.

Any ideas or points that I have forgotten will be welcome.

ray
 
Let me be sure I'm understanding... would an option be to make a braided type of cable, but one uses 18 gauge wires and one uses 22 gauge?  Or how about one pair is 6 feet long and one pair is 12 feet long?

What about having a wildcard division where there is no mate... I was going to make some speaker cables a while ago, but never got around to putting them together, but I don't have enough supplies for two pairs?

 
I think both of your examples (gauge and length) would be exactly what we are looking for. The basic principle is change just one parameter and see if we can hear a difference. For your special cables, we could try them after the comparisons.

To minimize duplication of effort, start thinking about the parameter you wish to compare and announce it so that somebody else doesn't pick it.

Mine is going to be steel barbed wire compared to steel barbed wire with the barbs removed (if I can actually do it). I'm hoping I can get the wire from the local Lowes, if not I will have to go to one of the local upscale specialty hardware shops.

I might also try to make a copper barbed wire cable to see if the steel sounds different from the copper. Sorry, there will be no silver barbed wire.

I have not decided how I will get around the insulation problem.

For those asking for a writeup, we usually post photos and a description of our meets. Perhaps one of our attendees (not me) can do the video.

ray
 
At one time there was an audio fashion for "air dielectric" meaning the speaker wires were spaced with wooden sticks, about 6 inches long, every couple feet or so. Popsicle sticks or tongue depressors for example. Much cheaper than ceramic high-voltage standoffs!
 
Since I have a bunch of popsicle sticks left over from building my H frame horns I was thinking of doing what you suggested. Is there a capacitance issue?

ray
 
Wow concertina speaker cable, half tweak, half security system. I think, rather then buying it. You should sneak into your local prison or military facility and steal it  8)

I once made a version of the braided Cat 5, that left my fingers bleeding. I would compare it to a version using the very same wire but only a few strands per cable.

I have a pair of the generic Woods extension cord made up, which judging by the meets I have been to is as close to a standard as I have seen...John       
 
Or you could go with the current rage ie. the 'cotton dielectric', by wrapping the barbed wire in some old t-shirts, socks etc.
 
2wo said:
Wow concertina speaker cable, half tweak, half security system. I think, rather then buying it. You should sneak into your local prison or military facility and steal it  8)...
Click to expand...
"Dude, you're still using barbed wire? That's SO 19th century ... you gotta try RAZOR wire! Yeah, that's the ticket! Gillette makes a good one...  be sure to anneal it in hot blood..."
 
If you have time, try it with different amps and speakers.

Some solid state amps can have stability problems with capacitive cables, where SETs may just have a different different high frequency response.

On long cable runs, speakers with impedance dips in the crossover will like a low impedance cable. Single driver speakers won't care as much.

This is one of my favorite cables.
"http://www.siteswithstyle.com/voltsecond/cat_5_speaker_cable/cat_5_spk_cable.html"
 
Thanks for the various ideas. I'm off to Australia for five weeks at the end of next week so perhaps I can find some old rusted wire by the side of the road from Brisbane to Adelaide. Since there is a cotton producing area on the way I'll just stop and gather the bits floating around by the highway. Or maybe skin from one of the hundreds of dead kangaroos we will pass along the way.

I've been thinking about the testing procedure to see if we can really hear a difference. To compare two sets of cables (A and B), play the same piece of music three times (1, 2, 3). We can hide the cables to ensure that you don't know which is being used.

Cable A will be used the first time.
Cable B will be used the third time.

Either cable A or B (random) will be used the second time.

Judging listeners will need to pick whether the cable changed between 1 and 2 or between 2 and 3.

If anybody can pick holes in this suggested arrangement, let me know.

ray
 
I will have a new pair of mtm speakers to debut at the meet. I can also make a couple of sets of cables using copper versus aluminium. We will need an amp good for 4 ohms. 
 
Steve, could you specify the standard length of each cable. I would suggest 6 or 8 feet.

Of course we would want somebody to bring a set of cables that were double the length of another set of cables of the same design.

So I think we need a list of comparisons that we each can volunteer to do.

A group of dimension comparisons

1 - double the length (same everything else)

2 - roughly double the resistance per foot (same everything else)

3 - double strands (similar to #2)


A group of conductor comparisons

3 - copper v aluminum (same gauge, same topology, same covering, same length)

4 - copper v aluminium (same resistance, same topology, same covering, same length)

5 - copper v steel (same gauge, same topology, same covering, same length)

6 - copper v steel (same resistance, same topology, same covering, same length)

7 - copper v silver (same gauge, same topology, same covering, same length) - somebody rich



A group of covering / insulation comparisons (pvc, teflon, cotton, air , some other mystery material)

8 - pvc v teflon

9 - pvc v cotton

10 - teflon v cotton

and so on.


A group of topology comparisons ( conductors parallel, conductors twisted, other)

And of course, the barbed v unbarbed steel wire which I volunteer to bring.

Other ideas will be welcome of course, but if you are planning to turn up, please start nominating the comparison(s) you want to do so we don't have duplication of effort. There are less than two months to go. If you have the time to construct cables for extra comparisons, please do so. I doubt just the few of us can cover all the permutations.

ray
 
Paul Joppa said:
2wo said:
Wow concertina speaker cable, half tweak, half security system. I think, rather then buying it. You should sneak into your local prison or military facility and steal it  8)...
Click to expand...
"Dude, you're still using barbed wire? That's SO 19th century ... you gotta try RAZOR wire! Yeah, that's the ticket! Gillette makes a good one...  be sure to anneal it in hot blood..."
Click to expand...

I had a feeling that Paul might be one of 'those'. A 'Renaissance man' of sorts. In touch with his 'darkness'. I'm not saying I'm not in that same camp. Complete with hard shell analytic exterior, with a black hole infinite interior.
 
 Ok we need 8` cables to avoid stretching issues. I say we do 1/2 the meet on cables and then do a run what you brung for the afternoon. I am a terrible cynic when it comes to speaker cables and i suspect that the differences will be minute if not non existent. I am going to set up my KT88 amp for 4ohms. Can someone bring a nice preamp as mine is misbehaving at the moment and needs some work.
    It looks like the meet will be late October rather than November.
 
I plan on bringing a group of topology comparisons using Cat6 wiring provided by Lee Hankins.  Here are my ideas:

- 6 twisted cables (audioholics V3)
- 6 braided cables (audioholics V4 - this is supposed to have more than twice the capacitance of V3)
- 6 cables deconstructed into single wires, then reassembled into flat side by side wires.  I'm going to try sandwiching them between popsicle sticks.

While I'm at it... maybe I will make a set of 6 cables that are not twisted, or braided at all. 

Also, I was thinking about music tracks to use.  I read about about a power cable comparison that used both audiophiles and layman.  There was an assortment of music used - Acoustic, Electric, Choral, etc.  The listeners would listen to cable A, then cable B, then an unknown cable X.  The listeners had to say whether they thought X was cable A or cable B.  If I recall, neither group was able identify the power cords consistently (more than 50% of the time) when you looked at the overall scores.  However, I think they were able to identify the cables most consistently when listening to Vocals only music. 

I don't want to debate the outcome of the test, or the methodology.  I simply found it interesting that Vocals only gave the most consistent outcome in the test.  My completely uneducated guess is that humans are more in tune to hearing differences between humans than they are other instruments.  Sort of like when you hear a band that gets a new lead singer - the singer might be good, but it doesn't sound right because its not the same person (with the exception of the new singer for Journey... look him up on YouTube and close your eyes.  Its remarkable). 

What do you think?
 
Dave - I agree on using vocals. I heard some 20.7 Maggies the other day that were not set up with the 'proper' system IMO. The vocals were noticeably 'shallow' and lifeless. The rest of the sound was thrilling, but the vocals were the giveaway. Piano may also be a good test, although I dont know of many systems that get piano exactly right.
 
I would agree on vocals for the comparisons test. And that is a great selection of cables to test.

I saw plenty of barbed wire on my drive out to Broken Hill in Oz today. However it all appeared to be in use in fences so I kept thoughts of wire cutters out of my mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_Hill,_New_South_Wales

It's an interesting place in the middle of nowhere. Years ago I stayed in the hotel with the weird murals that was featured in the film Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventures_of_Priscilla,_Queen_of_the_Desert

ray
 
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