Bottlehead DAC - making it happen with Kickstarter?
- Thread starter Doc B
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With my recent experience with the DAC kind of stomping all over a $3000 music server I am tempted to put together a few more comparisons. Working now to see if I can schedule some time at the studio and compare against some of the D/A gear they are using there. If this works out perhaps we can schedule a listening session for Bay Area folks.
Grainger49
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Guys, please make this happen. I want to get one when I get the next contract job.
I have complete faith in Bottlehead and John.
I have complete faith in Bottlehead and John.
caffeinator
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I think the Kickstarter Campaign is an inspired idea, and I'll find a way to back it.
I've had some less than ideal experiences with Kickstarter projects - late delivery, even as much as a year late, is a frequent problem - but I can't imagine that happening with this project.
I've had some less than ideal experiences with Kickstarter projects - late delivery, even as much as a year late, is a frequent problem - but I can't imagine that happening with this project.
physicsmajor
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First thought: There is a huge difference in sales between certain perceptual breakpoints. A very large one of these is between $1499 and $1500. That isn't just a game people play to annoy you with change. If you float a product at both and check the numbers it is clear this is a discontinuity in human perception. You will sell far more for one dollar less. Or even one cent less. I, too, will have to give this more thought before committing at the higher price. Even though I'm sure that price is justified. However, for purposes of a potential Kickstarter, if there was any wiggle room to offer it at or below $1499 that could end up being a make or break for the campaign. Even if the campaign ends up being successful, this would make it much more so.
Second thought: Kickstarter works great to support nascent projects like this. However, turning things around, what happens if you have runaway success? If you can get several favorable comparisons against standalone DACs in the $3k+ range, it's not outside the realm of possibility. Light Harmonic Labs raised 1.2 million on IndieGoGo for the Geek Pulse DAC (much lower priced at base, but with all optional upgrades they ended up offering it approached $1k). The point is, if you ended up with 100+ orders instead of 20, could you handle that? Unless you enable limited reward levels - and I strongly recommend this - Kickstarter has no upper bound. Some campaigns have limited rewards imposing an upper bound on their commitment, and add additional limited categories with later delivery dates if the initial ones fill. This is probably your best model. The other issue with such a "runaway success" campaign is that even if your costs end up lower, Kickstarter doesn't let you modify existing reward levels to pass those savings on (or to entice additional buyers who might have been on the fence at the original price). Ergo, most runaway success campaigns end up offering additional bonuses or upgrades via stretch goals so backers get more as the project's marginal costs decrease.
I don't have clear answers, but wanted to at least bring these topics up for consideration before you go live.
Second thought: Kickstarter works great to support nascent projects like this. However, turning things around, what happens if you have runaway success? If you can get several favorable comparisons against standalone DACs in the $3k+ range, it's not outside the realm of possibility. Light Harmonic Labs raised 1.2 million on IndieGoGo for the Geek Pulse DAC (much lower priced at base, but with all optional upgrades they ended up offering it approached $1k). The point is, if you ended up with 100+ orders instead of 20, could you handle that? Unless you enable limited reward levels - and I strongly recommend this - Kickstarter has no upper bound. Some campaigns have limited rewards imposing an upper bound on their commitment, and add additional limited categories with later delivery dates if the initial ones fill. This is probably your best model. The other issue with such a "runaway success" campaign is that even if your costs end up lower, Kickstarter doesn't let you modify existing reward levels to pass those savings on (or to entice additional buyers who might have been on the fence at the original price). Ergo, most runaway success campaigns end up offering additional bonuses or upgrades via stretch goals so backers get more as the project's marginal costs decrease.
I don't have clear answers, but wanted to at least bring these topics up for consideration before you go live.
physicsmajor said:
The board manufacturer has indicated the ability to handle an order like this pretty easily, and we have to buy over 100 of the "custom" chips anyway, so this would only be marginally more difficult than 20.
denti alligator
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I'd still like to know what will happen to the price if the Kickstarter is a success. Will it go up, down, or stay the same?
denti alligator said:
There is a presumption that after the Kickstarter, there will be a product page on our website and the ability to purchase said product and receive it in 3-6 weeks (like our other kits). This may or may not be the case, as we have to balance what is roughly twice the cost for a small production run of these boards vs. trying to order the "right" large quantity.
We have been manufacturing and selling kits for 20 years and we handle hundreds of orders each year. I'm not going to go into details on numbers, but suffice it to say we have had single day sales that were as big as a regular month's sales and we delivered. Based upon our limited experience I feel that quantity is a good thing. I would love to deliver to 100 people out there who are ready to jump in on this DAC.
Regarding t-shirts, I think that is a great idea for funding a startup. I appreciate those who want to support the project that way, though I'm not sure if offering that kind of thing fits this model. We're an established company with a good track record simply trying to use Kickstarter as a very clear cut way to either get enough orders for a brand new, costly to produce product, or retire the idea with no hard feelings for our customers and no financial debacle for us.
Regarding the $_99 thing, I would respectfully ask you to look at our product pricing. You may gather from it that the Kickstarter launch would include such refinements. I appreciate the analysis, and particularly appreciate the folks who come forward to say they are in - that's the most important data point we are attempting to acquire.
@Sam, we do not at this time have any plans to lower the price. To quote an Allen Stone lyric -
push, pull, tear,
we can't stretch it any further
Regarding t-shirts, I think that is a great idea for funding a startup. I appreciate those who want to support the project that way, though I'm not sure if offering that kind of thing fits this model. We're an established company with a good track record simply trying to use Kickstarter as a very clear cut way to either get enough orders for a brand new, costly to produce product, or retire the idea with no hard feelings for our customers and no financial debacle for us.
Regarding the $_99 thing, I would respectfully ask you to look at our product pricing. You may gather from it that the Kickstarter launch would include such refinements. I appreciate the analysis, and particularly appreciate the folks who come forward to say they are in - that's the most important data point we are attempting to acquire.
@Sam, we do not at this time have any plans to lower the price. To quote an Allen Stone lyric -
push, pull, tear,
we can't stretch it any further
Doc, another potential platform you could use is called Massdrop which does exactly what you are looking for. https://www.massdrop.com/how-it-works
You might want to explore this avenue as well.
You might want to explore this avenue as well.
Jim Hagerman got four times what he was asking : https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1907446723/cornet3-a-diy-tube-phono-preamp. I'm pretty sure BH will also achieve it. BTW, Jim decided that he would take half the risk on himself, he said he would do the preamps even if he raised half the money he really needed (he calculated he needed around 22 k$ and was ready to ship the pres even if he got only 11K). And he offered to send some cables when the project reached 200%.
Good luck, I'm still not completely sure if I will spend so much money on a DAC, I mainly listen to LPs lately.
Good luck, I'm still not completely sure if I will spend so much money on a DAC, I mainly listen to LPs lately.
denti alligator
New member
I'm gonna try and raise the funds, but I don't know. Doc, I was sure the price wouldn't be lowered; just worried a bit it might go up.
johnsonad
New member
I too would like it compared against other products, especially comercial offerings. It's getting expensive and at that point I would prefer to hear it in my system before taking the plundge. I don't have a lot of faith in digital products. Amps make senese and the Paramounts are a steal at their price point. For the DAC it's at the point I would want to hear other products in that range before committing on one.
tdogzthmn said:
We have worked with Massdrop in the past twice, but are not planning to work with them in the future.
Boy if Jim would cover half the cost for us that would be awesome. I think I have put around $15K into this project so far and we haven't even ordered any parts for production yet.
Massdrop is not the same as Kickstarter. They are about getting a manufacturer to give a deep discount on an existing product. We are capable of running our own "drops" and thus having control of delivery.
I understand the hesitance about a new digital product. That's why it took you guys years to talk me into doing this. I'm involved with what is considered one of the best sounding formats available (Tape Project) and thus I can't afford to put out a crap product in another medium. So this project was about "what's the best we can possibly do and still be at a realistic price?" from the start. For me it started with listening to and learning about products like the Pacific Microsonics Model 2, the Pyramix workstation and the Audeeva Conbrio. Three years and many prototypes later we feel we have reached the level we were shooting for. Hopefully some will find the product useful in their search for musical bliss.
Massdrop is not the same as Kickstarter. They are about getting a manufacturer to give a deep discount on an existing product. We are capable of running our own "drops" and thus having control of delivery.
I understand the hesitance about a new digital product. That's why it took you guys years to talk me into doing this. I'm involved with what is considered one of the best sounding formats available (Tape Project) and thus I can't afford to put out a crap product in another medium. So this project was about "what's the best we can possibly do and still be at a realistic price?" from the start. For me it started with listening to and learning about products like the Pacific Microsonics Model 2, the Pyramix workstation and the Audeeva Conbrio. Three years and many prototypes later we feel we have reached the level we were shooting for. Hopefully some will find the product useful in their search for musical bliss.
I guess comparisons are fine, but what do they really tell you when it is someone else's ears listening to someone else's system in someone else' room? I don't know.
But what I compare is my system before Bottlehead and then with the addition of each piece of Bottlehead gear. Now I compare my 'new' Bottlehead system (BeePre/Stereomour) with my previous Bottlehead system (Foreplay/Paraglow/Parabee). The one thing that has been constant is the VALUE of Bottlehead equipment. Doc and the team at Bottlehead have always work to give us the best possible equipment at the least possible cost. I have no doubt that a $1500 Bottlehead DAC will have a VALUE of $3000-$5000 or more.
But what I compare is my system before Bottlehead and then with the addition of each piece of Bottlehead gear. Now I compare my 'new' Bottlehead system (BeePre/Stereomour) with my previous Bottlehead system (Foreplay/Paraglow/Parabee). The one thing that has been constant is the VALUE of Bottlehead equipment. Doc and the team at Bottlehead have always work to give us the best possible equipment at the least possible cost. I have no doubt that a $1500 Bottlehead DAC will have a VALUE of $3000-$5000 or more.
Hank Murrow
New member
Dear Doc; That was a pretty generous survey of where BH has arrived in the development of the DAC. If I can get up to BHeadquarters soon, would a comparo between the BH DAC and the Oppo BDP 95 DAC be possible? Or have you already compared it with your BDP 103 at home?
In any case, I would add my name to the emerging list if it offers improvement vis-Ã -vis the Oppo.
Cheers for all you do! Hank in Eugene
In any case, I would add my name to the emerging list if it offers improvement vis-Ã -vis the Oppo.
Cheers for all you do! Hank in Eugene
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