Advice on base finishes

[Dr. Toobz]

I've built a bunch of kits over the past few years, and may do a Stereomour and/or a Foreplay III sometime in the near future. I want to try a different approach towards staining and finishing the bases, and would like to get some pointers.

So far, I've always used Minwax red mahogany stain with a topcoat of glossy poly as a finish. Plates have been sprayed with glossy black Krylon, which doesn't seem terribly durable. The overall product ends up looking nice from a distance, but unrefined, as the Minwax never stains evenly, despite my fastidiousness. I have a little thing of TransTint aniline dye (dark walnut) that I may try instead. Has anybody ever used this stuff? If so, would I perhaps use an alcohol base vs water, to avoid raising the grain?

Also, I've thought of using shellac vs poly for a finish. What's the best way to get a consistent finish with shellac? Can it be sprayed? In the past, I've brushed on the poly with a foam brush, and then sanded in between coats, and I'm still not thrilled with the consistency of the surface. I'm wondering if shellac will look nicer?

My idea is to use the walnut transtint to stain the wood dark brown, then do a charcoal or bronze krylon on the top-plate (perhaps even a hammered finish), blue the iron parts with Birchwood Casey, and finish off the wood base with a warm shellac. If this looks nice, I may re-do my other gear with the same scheme. Any advice on how to end up with an elegant looking end product vs. a "homemade" looking one would be much appreciated!

 

[Doc B]

Aniline dye is great and I recommend the water base stuff. The alcohol base dye dries so fast that it is difficult to avoid overlap marks.

The best way to finish with shellac is to do a french polish. Takes for****ing ever but the result is wonderful. If you want a mile deep finish try sealing with and then building up shellac (spray) until you can sand it smooth without cutting through the finish. Then shoot the smoothed shellac with nitro lacquer. I have not done this on one of our bases, but I did a whole lot of antique radios this way.

 

[jrebman]

Angelo,

Don't despair, I know plenty of people who report having the same kinds of problems with the minwax stain that you are using.

Here's another alternative to consider: dye or stain the base with the walnut, but look at the stains from General Finishes.  Stains don't bring out the grain nearly as well as dyes, but they tend to hold their color for a lot longer and are often easier to apply consistently.  Dyes do a great job of popping the grain, but as all dyes do, they tend to fade with age, especially if exposed to sunlight, and as doc said, they can sometimes be hard to apply evenly.  I love dyes myself, and my crack base is finished with several flavors of red in multiple applications and then finished with minwax wipe-on poly (which is what was available at the time.

I really prefer the Arm-R-Seal wipe on poly/oil from general finishes, and while you can apply with a foam brush, wiping on with a clean, lint-free cloth works much better.  Just build it up, sand with fine to super fine wet/dry paper between coats and keep going.  Take your time, and instead of sanding before the3 last 2 coats, use a fine steel or bronze wool and then don't do anything to the last two coats and you should end up with a fantastic finish that isn't too terribly difficult to do.  The easiest mistake you can make with this approach is to wipe the poly/oil on too fast, which will tend to "burn" the finish, however it can be sanded down and recoated.

Then when it's all done, let it harden for several weeks and then you can go back and wax it if you want, though I never really find this necessary.  Point is to allow for a full, hard cure before attempting any polishing/buffing/waxing.

Hope this helps,

Jim

 

[elcraigo]

I like the water based Aniline dye. I've had trouble with alcohol based myself for the reason Doc said.
I thought the same about raising the grain.
What I did the last time I used water based is, raise the grain on purpose, rubbing the wood with a damp rag.
Let it dry some, and sand to remove raised grain. Maybe a couple times.
Then apply the stain in light coats 4-5 times with a rag - almost rubbing until dry, switching to a clean rag (with no stain).
Another thing I think is cool with the Aniline dyes are the non-wood colors.
I usually finish with tung oil - rubbed on 3-4 times.
Although I do like that polished piano finish, I just don't have the skill.
Hope I didn't add too much to the mix.

 

[ssssly]

Can also add stain or dye to tung oil. I have used half tung oil and half alcohol based with nice results.

 

[elcraigo]

I heard about mixing with Tung oil, and I have some alcohol based dye.
Probably does dry out as fast, and you can get a even finish.
There any tricks and/or got-ya's?

 

[ssssly]

When using tung oil I generally put a pure coat down and let it sit in for a minute or two then wipe it down with thinner. Then for the rest of the coats I use about half and half. Wipe it on thick and then remove excess with a clean rag and rub it down with thinner or spirits in between coats until it gets the depth I am looking for.

Are a million different ways and secret formulas. Googling it will get you tons of different ways. I would suggest sifting through them until you find a finished product that looks like what you want to do, then do with that method.

 

[ironbut]

No matter what stains and finishes you decide to try,.. there's no substitute for experience.
Go down to your local lumber yard (call them first) and pick up some scraps of the wood that you're going to be finishing (usually just a couple of bucks). Most of the time, those "end cuts" are more than 6" or so.
Treat those scraps exactly the way you plan to do the real thing (you might even try and find a couple with 45's cut into the ends so you can glue the corners together and practice on the joint too).

And anytime you decide to mix products together, make 4X as much as you need and seal it up super tight. You never know when you'll want to stain something to "match" what you've already done.

 

[Dr. Toobz]

I really appreciate all of the great advice! Thanks to all.

Regardless of what I build next, I think re-finishing some of my very first projects (S.E.X. and Seduction) is going to be the first step. Conversely, my 2010 Crack build came out very nice (gosh, that sounds strange as I type this), with nothing more than two applications of red mahogany stain and two or three coats of poly (see photo below). The only issue with that build is the unevenness (and some sagging) of the poly, which I may buff out, and then re-topcoat the entire base with spray lacquer to get a more consistent finish. I really hate wipe-on poly - should have used the spray stuff to begin with! The top plate was left untreated by design - as the amp is my 2009 aluminum iMac's desk buddy. By that point, I had built four amps and was getting the hang of the cosmetic part. (Even my first builds are fine electrically - I'm just not very artistic). Is commonly-available spray lacquer more consistent than wipe-on poly?

That said, am I better off just ordering new wood bases vs. stripping, sanding, and toiling to get the old ones to where I want them to be? Short of bleaching the bases, I don't know how the stain would ever get out of the wood, especially if it penetrated deeply. The poly, on the other hand, is easy to remove with a citrus stripper or the like.

Finally, I think I am going to go with Rustoleum black lacquer on my top plates, both to get a super-smooth, glossy black finish, and to get a final product that's harder and more scratch resistant than regular spray paint. Somebody here posted their Eros build with white lacquer and it really looks smooth. Has anybody else taken apart their amps to re-do the top plates? I suspect I will have to re-flow some joints once everything is back together, regardless of how careful I am, as things will inevitably move once detached from the plate. One the other hand, maybe this gives me an opportunity to rebuild things - i.e., sneak some nicer capacitors, Teflon tube sockets, and silver wire in there

If the nicer plates and better topcoats go well, that's what I'll duplicate for the Stereomour. I just want to end up with stuff that doesn't look overly amateurish - though again, I doubt anyone would mistake me for an artist either way!

 

[ssssly]

Depending on the severity of the run in the poly you might be able to wet sand it out. If its just a slight wave you might be able to just steel wool it and buff it out. Just be prepared to strip it before you start sanding.

I use automotive clear coat on my top plates and pretty much everything else I paint that is metal. I have the mint green EROS. I did use wipe on poly my SEX top plate though. But that was because I thought the bubbly aged look would compliment the brush turned top plate.

For poly on wood, I think wardsweb posted on his poly technique a while back. When he did those large rounded back speakers and his custom Quickie if I am not mistaken. He does some of the nicest poly finishes I have seen, so I would ask him.

And if you are going to try something new, definitely take ironbut's advice and try it out on something you are going to throw away first.

Can't wait to see the pics.

 

[Dr. Toobz]

Ok, so I tried sanding down my old bases in an attempt to re-use them. That didn't work so well, as the mahogany stain I used apparently went really far into the wood, leaving deep black grains, even after going to town with 60-grit on an orbital sander. Just for fun, though, I followed that with 220-grit, got a nice smooth finish, and then tried out some Danish Oil (medium walnut). The resulting color and finish (well, where the wood was able to be sanded down to normal, anyway) looks spot-on identical to my Heresy speakers. So, I think I'm going to have to cough up money for new wooden bases and just go from bare wood to the oil finish. The oil looks great - I'm not sure why I messed with stain and poly to begin with! The plates, when I get around to re-doing them, will be black lacquer. Should be a nice combo, and will look really classy next to the Klipsch speakers, Marantz CD-5004, and jet-black Music Hall turntable. I'm also going to re-introduce the Quickie into the chain, as the Seduction's gain is still not high enough for my tastes with the cart on the new 'table. Guess that means another base to finish....

I'll pass some photos along once this project is finished!

 

[debk]

I use transtint dye diluted in water, and then a tung oil finish.

Debra

 

[Dr. Toobz]

I use transtint dye diluted in water, and then a tung oil finish.

Debra

I tried some Transtint on scrap wood - seemed fine, but I suspect the oil is probably more fool-proof for somebody with my lack of artistic abilities! The only downside I've heard with the Transtint is the possibility of fading - and my gear is exposed to sunlight most of the day. I'm assuming that if using the Danish Oil, I'll simply have to rub a bit of oil into the wood every now and then to keep it looking nice. Or, maybe do a wax finish over it?

When starting from a completely new base, how much do people sand? Or, when using an oil finish, it is even necessary to get the surface smoother than what comes in the box? Also, how have others prevented the base seams from becoming too dark, given that they seem to absorb stain very easily? (Is it correct to stain after the base has been glued together....) I was planning on just hitting the boxes with a quick spin of 220-grit on my orbital sander, then tack cloth, then oil - probably 3 applications worth. 

 

[ssssly]

For Danish oil this is my recipe:

Wipe everything down with spirits. Let it sit overnight.

Sand with gradually finer paper, I start with a 60 and go to 320. Anything below 220 I use a hand block to avoid getting too aggressive with the power tools.

Wipe everything down with a tack cloth.

Wet the entire piece with the danish oil and keep it wet for about 30 min using a natural fiber brush. Then let it sit for about 15 min until it tacks up. Once it tacks up wipe it down with a clean cloth. Then immediately wet the entire piece again allow it to tack up and wipe it down again with a clean cloth.

Then check on the piece every 20-30 min for 2-3 hours and wipe down any seepage.

Let sit for 24hours then rub it down with 0000 steel wool. Let tack, wipe down, watch for 2-3 hours and wipe seepage. (Repeat this step every day until the finish is as deep as you want.)

Once you have the depth you want wet sand the piece with 600-1000 grit. Make sure you thoroughly wet all the sand paper with danish oil and sand lightly 2-3 times over the entire surface. Let sit for 24 hours. (repeat this step until it has the shine you want.)

Takes a week to 10 days but looks great. Again, try on scrap first to get the hang of it.

Could also try raising the grain, scraping, filling, and sanding the old base. Or just use it for practice.

 

[Maxwell_E]

My dad is a career carpenter, and he discovered that for small things or beautiful wood that Tru-Oil or similar brand gunstock varnish is amazing. The better brands are great at making grain pop out on old gunstocks that are commonly figured walnut. And it's indestructible. I used it on my SEX once I had it stained a light honey-oak color. first coat was a foam brush, then 600 grit, then subsequent coats applied by dipping my finger in the bottle wrapped in a bit of old cotton t-shirt with 000 and 0000 steel wool in between coats. I lost count of how many coats I ended up with, but it's amazing looking. I don't know if I did it the right way, but it sure worked well.

 

[Armaegis]

On my old Crack I used a lighter Minwax stain which turned out ok. More recently I tried a minwax dark walnut gloss but am not as happy with it. Both the colour and shine are sorta inconsistent. Granted I'm not a great woodworker, but this darker one seemed more difficult to work with than the light stain.

I goofed on one of the sides and had to redo it, which was a huge pain. Sandpaper was gumming up, so I had to use steel wool to scratch the worst of it off before I could smooth things back down with the paper.

Is there a level of smoothness which works best before staining? I was going down to 400 which felt nice. I tried some 600 which did feel smoother, but it looked like the wood was going grey (leaving sand grit in the wood grain itself?)

 

[howardnair]

a book-and web site  http://www.michaeldresdner.com/
dyes work well and can be stained after sealing--wipe on poly can give a excellent finish but it takes about 6 to 10 thin coats-after dying and or staining spray shellac can be used--spray shellac has no wax in it --i use a couple  coats of sanding sealer or spray shellac before using wipe on poly-wipe it on lightly and let it dry- sand with 220 to 320-again and again--in some woods the pores will continue to absorb -so using a pore filler is needed if you are looking for a fine finish-i have made dyes from tubes of pigment from the paint department of the local yard-they mix with water or other mediums easily-dresdner has a  new book- The new Wood Finishing book --very informative-i have several of his books they are more than helpful-i just bought a second stereomour and some very blond mahogany-i will dye this with a yellow pigment--it will be a all- wood chassis -somewhat similar to the bloodwood one i made in october-but i don't think the trannie cover will be rounded-not really sure at this point-howie

 

[tuffy_puppy]

in the past i have built a number of kayaks (wooden).  for a finish i have used spar varnish with uv inhibitors.  this applied over an epoxy coat rolled out with a foam roller.  and rolled out. and rolled out. and rolled out etc.  get it smoother than a baby's butt.  dry for a few days.  and then the spar varnish (with uv inhibitors).  foam brush.  do this until it is pleasing to your eye.  my guru for this was  john lockwood,  pygmy kayaks, port townsend,  washington................you may look at this effect online.  my kayaks are a good ten years old and are still gorgeous!!      don pettit, long beach, washington

 

[jrebman]

Don,

Sounds beautiful!  Wish I could see the pics.

Do you cold-mold or build ply 'yaks (with something like Bruynzeel ply)?  Round bottom, lapstrake or hard-chine?  How long are they?

Wood boats of all sorts are a passion, though living in the Rocky Mountains, nowhere near real water, makes them somewhat impractical for me now.

-- Jim

 

[tuffy_puppy]

hey jim,  i had hoped that i was using the forum correctly.  here in our soggy nw climate alder grows like a weed and is extremely soft.  so it can ding very easily.  forgot that when i opened my new extended foreplay 3 recently.  put a small fingernail mark right up front.  if i were going to put the kit together the first thing i would have done would have been would have been to finish the alder pieces the way i mentioned.  makes it hard as hell and can be very easily refinished.  that is the way i finished my two pygmy kits.  try going on line and seeing what can be done.  great stuff!!  pygmy kayaks. com........the other two boats are what is called skin- on-frame kayaks.  west greenland style(there are other styles).  construct a frame of fir with oak ribs and wrap it in #10 canvas cotton duck.  sew a seam down the top and get in the water.  much more of course but that's the idea.  cheated and fastened all joints with epoxy rather than traditional doweling and lashing(and yes that makes me a chicken)............the greenland boats are hard-chined.  the pygmy boats are a series of soft chines.  the greenland boats are 17' 6".  the wooden boats are 15' 8".  at the pygmy site you will see many different lengths of boats. jim,  please let me know how to use this forum properly.  i am old and my wife has to do for me anything more complex on the computer than to construct an email.  do not ever  intend to build any kind of kit but am a confirmed bottlehead.  thanks,  don pettit,  long beach, washington.............maybe 175 miles south of doc's place,  mouth of the columbia river