Newbie capacitor question

[PassionForSound]

I've noticed across a range of different threads that there is talk of replacing the smaller capacitors in the SEX kit and bypassing some of the larger ones. I also see photos where it appears the larger caps (1000 uF) are replaced.

Can some tell a complete modification newb the benefits of doing this? Are the changes to sound significant enough that I should buy different capacitors to install from scratch or is this a "tinker later" type of upgrade?

I have built a stock Crack successfully so can comfortably manage stock builds, but don't know what I'm doing with mods.

 

[johnsonad]

Tinker later. Build first, break it in and sprinkle a little salt and pepper to personal taste (capacitors) when you are ready. The S.E.X. Will sound great from the beginning.  Swapping caps allows you to taylor the sound to your system preference.

 

[PassionForSound]

Tinker later. Build first, break it in and sprinkle a little salt and pepper to personal taste (capacitors) when you are ready. The S.E.X. Will sound great from the beginning.  Swapping caps allows you to taylor the sound to your system preference.

Thanks for the reply! Any suggestions for which capacitors will make what difference (i.e. the smaller vs the larger?)

I should add, that I'm inclined to take your advice about keeping it stock at first, but would love to learn just a little bit more about what I see people doing and why.

 

[4krow]

  In my experience, the caps that I replace first are in the signal path. Output caps for example. As to what is best, that quickly becomes a matter of taste.

 

[earwaxxer]

The reasons for "cap rolling" if you will, much like tube rolling, you will get different sound from cap A vs. cap B. With the obvious out of the way, you tend to get what you pay for, and good caps are expensive.

Best to do some research. As far as whether to replace a pair of caps at a time, or build a whole new modded kit, thats up to you. I built the stock Quicke first, got it to work, then built a completely modded one after that. I have both so I can compare. I upgraded everything in the modded one. That might be kind of (very) expensive for the S.E.X. Its easy to spend many hundreds on boutique stuff. If I had a somewhat complex kit I would go slow. Get to know your parts and what they do. In your manual you can get a hint of what the parts do, focus on the small value caps. Get more familiar with what they do. Ask some questions here. Do some cap research. Dig around on the site for what others have done. Study the attached link to get started on what caps you might be interested in, and what your budget may be for the same. Good Luck! 
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Eric

 

[galyons]

Build it out, burn it in, listen for awhile.  It is much easier to troubleshoot a stock build and you then have a sonic signature basis with which to compare mods.  Boutique caps are, in fact, expensive, but not necessarily better.  It really depends on how you want the unit to sound and other components in the audio chain.  Some of the best sounding caps, with top notch construction are old American and Soviet paper-in-oil caps.    When you compare them to the cost of Jensens, AudioNote, Dueland and other newly manufactured PIO caps, don't let the cost differential make you think the more $$$$ the better cap.  Russian Teflons, especially the FT series are also well regarded in the DIY community. Most of us could never afford the cost of the Russian caps if they were being manufactured today in an open market.  Think of it as the Cold War military budget subsidizing your audio habit!!

Search and read through forum posts on what others have used and why.  I would put fellow forum members opinions and experience well above any online cap survey, especially one that compares the caps in speaker crossovers, not amplifiers. (Although cap construction materials all have a sound signature, plastic caps, plastic caps in oil, PIO's  have family similarities)  Make sure that the caps, are for you, "ear candy" not "eye candy"!

Have fun building, then enjoy customizing to your taste!!

Cheers,
Geary

 

[PassionForSound]

The reasons for "cap rolling" if you will, much like tube rolling, you will get different sound from cap A vs. cap B. With the obvious out of the way, you tend to get what you pay for, and good caps are expensive.

Best to do some research. As far as whether to replace a pair of caps at a time, or build a whole new modded kit, thats up to you. I built the stock Quicke first, got it to work, then built a completely modded one after that. I have both so I can compare. I upgraded everything in the modded one. That might be kind of (very) expensive for the S.E.X. Its easy to spend many hundreds on boutique stuff. If I had a somewhat complex kit I would go slow. Get to know your parts and what they do. In your manual you can get a hint of what the parts do, focus on the small value caps. Get more familiar with what they do. Ask some questions here. Do some cap research. Dig around on the site for what others have done. Study the attached link to get started on what caps you might be interested in, and what your budget may be for the same. Good Luck! 
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Eric

Thanks so much for the link, Eric - I'll do some reading.

And to everyone else who replied - thank you for sharing your experiences and advice so openly - I very much appreciate it!

 

[johnsonad]

Funny you should mention the Ruskies Geary.  Here is a photo of caps on my burn in rig getting ready to roll in my BeePre   Included are PIO's (MK's), FT-1's, FT-2's, and silver mica's.  All of these cost me under $50 probably. 

 

[earwaxxer]

True, definitely dont overlook the Russians! Here is another cap test/review where they included some of the Ruskies.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/diy/0708/capacitor1.htm

 

[earwaxxer]

Aaaah why not, one more..
http://www.goodsoundclub.com/PDF/capacitorshootout.pdf

 

[galyons]

Funny you should mention the Ruskies Geary.  Here is a photo of caps on my burn in rig getting ready to roll in my BeePre   Included are PIO's (MK's), FT-1's, FT-2's, and silver mica's.  All of these cost me under $50 probably.

A picture is worth a thousand words, but the Ruskies are good for a quadrillion notes or more!!!  Does my ears good!

Cheers,
Geary

 

[earwaxxer]

Last one, I swear! - its not my fault, you got me trolling through my bookmarks. I have at least 30 bookmarks for all kinds of cap reviews. This guy is a hoot. "Jimmy's Junkyard". His English is not real good but he says it like it is. You have to search his blog to find related stuff but its fun. He has good photos too! (audio porn).
http://jimmyauw.com/2009/08/16/extreme-capacitors-battle-1st-session/

 

[Grainger49]

Tinker later. Build first, break it in and sprinkle a little salt and pepper to personal taste (capacitors) when you are ready. The S.E.X. Will sound great from the beginning.  Swapping caps allows you to taylor the sound to your system preference.

Ben Johnson agrees with what Aaron Johnson said... (Sorry, Blazing Saddles flash back there)

But I agree with Aaron.  Build stock first, allow it to burn in and get used to the sound, otherwise you have no basis of comparison.  You gain no knowledge of what your modifications have done.

The signal path capacitors are the greater change.  That is ... well the name says it all.  The signal passes through them.  The SEX has a 0.1uF and a 1.0uF both rated at 630V.  Don't change the voltage rating to a lower voltage rating.  If you go higher it won't be a problem except the cap really gets large.

Signal path caps are like spicing.  Some guys like garlic, some like cilantro. 

The power supply caps are what dumps energy into the circuit when it needs it.  Electrolytic caps are large, inexpensive and well suited for power supplies.  They have a higher internal resistance (ESR) than film caps which can dump energy into the circuit more quickly.  So a film cap can dump quickly giving the electrolytic time to get started.

 

[adamct]

In case anyone finds this useful...

[Here's hoping the formatting won't get all screwed up when I hit "Post". --- The prices below are PCX (Parts Connexion) list prices as of today (7/22/2013) and do not reflect the current, limited-time -20% discount. I checked Madisound, but the prices weren't materially different. Note that Madisound often has cheaper/faster shipping, but of course PCX currently has the sale mentioned above.) The list below is not comprehensive --- I only checked those caps that looked like they might be appealing to me, and might be a reasonably priced step-up from my go-to caps, namely ClarityCap ESAs.]

Cap Manufacturer / Line                           0.1uf                                               1.0 uf
Mundorf M-Cap Supreme Silver & Oil             $33.46 (1,000V)                                 $55.86 (1,000V)
Mundorf Supreme (metalized polypropylene)          $11.19 (1,400V)                                 $18.90 (600V)
Mundorf MKP                                         $3.49 (630V)                                            $3.63 (400V only)
Mundorf EVO

 

[adamct]

Hey! That mostly worked!  ;D Not perfect, but at least the columns are broadly intact.

Although it is indicated in the chart, I forgot to highlight the fact that the Mundorf EVO

 

[HF9]

How do you guys feel about the Russian silver mica KSG-2s? I don't see much info about them online other than in that review. I would think that mounting them might be an interesting challenge

 

[earwaxxer]

That's a pretty darn good list of boutique "affordable" caps. Gets painful toward the top though!

 

[earwaxxer]

I would try them - try any and all of the NOS Russian stuff, but you must report back to us your findings. I think most people skip the Russians because they look funny, and they want to spend some money and go boutique.

 

[adamct]

Eric,

I was kind of hoping to get your thoughts on the following:

- Mundorf Supreme

- Mundorf M-Cap Supreme Silver & Oil
- Jensen Copper Foil PIOs
- Jupiter HT-Series Beeswax Paper Aluminum Foil

Any thoughts on whether the Mundorf Supremes are worth the premium over the ClarityCap ESAs? Any thoughts on the relative strengths/weaknesses or differences among the other three?

Best regards,
Adam

 

[galyons]

How do you guys feel about the Russian silver mica KSG-2s? I don't see much info about them online other than in that review. I would think that mounting them might be an interesting challenge

They can challenge  or even better the best of the Teflons in terms of clarity, details and simply getting out of the way of the music.  The KSG's don't come in high capacitance's and they are relatively big. (hence the mounting challenge!)  They take just as long to break in as Teflons.  I have used them in a PSE 6L6GC amp as inter-stage coupling caps and they were really very nice.

Cheers,
Geary