Eros BUILD HELP NEEDED

[haiku626]

Hello Everyone,
First of all I would like to say that I love the Bottlehead sound.  Thus far I have built the wonderful Crack and its Speedball upgrade.  Recently I embarked on an Eros but have run into some problems when doing resistance and voltage checks.  I will admit that I am one of those builders that basically just knows which end of the soldering iron gets hot...  Thank you in advance to all who can help me.

Resistance readings out of sync: first # is actual / second # is standard
Terminals
T11: 47 / 0
T12: 121 / 60
T13: 37 / 0
T14: 132 / 71
T15: 47 / 0
Nine pin sockets
B1: 72 /27
B6: 121 / 60
C7: 121 / 60

Voltage readings out of sync:
C4S board right side (B)
bA: 164 / 0
Kreg: 166 / 1
OB: 221 / 100
breg: 218 / 100
On power up 2 of the leds on this side light up but soon fade out

Thank You

 

[Grainger49]

Haiku,

At least you know which end of the soldering iron to grab and which not to grab.  You should be fine.

Can you edit (called modify in the top right of your post) and add the expected values for the points you are out of spec with?  That will keep us from jumping back and fourth in the manual.

Looking at the schematic says that bA for either channel should be grounded.  With it at 164V that says the wire attached is not grounded.  Check the solder joints on each end.  Use your meter set to the lowest resistance range and measure from bA to the chassis plate then from the terminal (either T1 or T15) to the chassis plate.  Both readings should be almost the same as when you touch the meter leads together, usually about 0.1 or 0.2 ohms.

I can't find Kreg on the schematic I have so I'll go upstairs and do some checking.

Ob should be at 100V.  It is high because the tube isn't on.  So I'll check on this as well.

Which LEDs come on?  Is it the two on the A side or the two on the B side?  I bet A side.

 

[haiku626]

Hi Grainger,
Thank you very much for the correct diagnosis of not having the proper ground.  I found that I mistakenly attached the wire from T11 to T27 when it should have been T26.   Man, my old eyes are playing tricks on me...   Fixing this problem placed my previous mentioned resistance issues more or less in sync with the expected values.

Of course I was now really excited and anxious to spin some vinyl, but did a voltage check just to be sure.
This time all readings on the B CS4 board were okay except for OA which gave a reading of 99 vs an expected value of 170 and Kreg which gave a reading of .59 vs 1.00.  I noticed all LEDs light up on this CS4 but the two on the B side were delayed in doing so when compared to the other boards.

Anyway I tried to listen to some music with the Eros regardless of the out of sync reading of OA and Kreg.  To my disappointment, no sound out of the left channel.  Oh well I should have expected it.  Hopefully you or someone else with expertise can help me.

 

[Grainger49]

Haiku, I'm 62, my eyes play the same tricks on me.  I spent yesterday, on and off, getting LEDs (diodes) in 4 C4S boards in the right direction.

Some LEDs come on after others.  It has to do with where in the circuit they are and how quickly the heater on the tube warms up.  As long as they are all on, that is good.

So... opening the Eros schematic...  assuming that it is the Kreg on the left channel, there is a lot in that circuit.

You will need to look closely at this board.  Check these components for orientation and that it is the right value.  The transistor leads can be a pain.

2200uF@4V, small silver cap
2N222 transistor, again small, silver, near that cap
27k ohm 1W resistor
174 ohm resistor

The two above resistors turn on the transistor.  If they are swapped it won't come on and the EF86 won't turn on.

 

[haiku626]

Hi Grainger,
All of the resistor values check out to expected value, the 2N222 transistor and 2700uf capacitor are oriented properly.  I am thinking that the EF86 tube does go on since there is some warmth to it when touched after it is left on for a few minutes.

 

[Paul Joppa]

Check the tube pin voltages. The low voltage at kreg suggests the servo is trying to lower the EF86 plate voltage (should be 100v at pin 6) so either there's a wiring error or possibly the EF86 is not conducting well. The voltage check is the best way to determine where the problem is, but you can swap EF86s to see if the problem moves, and if the tube is warm you can let it run for a while to see if the emission kicks in.

 

[Grainger49]

D'oh! 

Swapping tubes is always the first and easiest idea.  See if the problem follows the EF86 when you swap them.

 

[haiku626]

Swapped the tubes between A and B; however, the problem remained at B.  Shucks, I was really hoping that it would be a tube problem...
Kreg: .05VDC / s/b 1
OA: 101VDC / s/b 170
Pin B6 voltage checked out at 102.6
I rewetted some of the soldering where I thought it may help but no luck in improving the readings.

 

[Noskipallwd]

It's pretty easy to create solder bridges between the small pads on these boards, done it myself a couple of times. It wouldn't hurt to re-inspect the boards for these.

Cheers,
Shawn

 

[haiku626]

There may be a solder bridge between the two -reg connections closest to the long edge of the board with the LG 2700 and black wire.  Does this matter?

 

[Grainger49]

If they are both -reg, they are all supposed to be connected by the trace on the PCB.  But the problem comes when adjacent outputs get bridged.

Did you check the component values listed above?  Those are in the Kreg circuit.  Then verify that R1 on the A side of this board is indeed 113 ohms.  That sets the current for the C4S feeding OA.

And don't feel alone, I'm having fits with 11 year old boards I decided to install on Tuesday.  It is posted in the Legacy folder.

 

[haiku626]

Hi Grainger,
Thanks for comforting me.  Without the support from the Forum members I think I would be getting a nervous breakdown.  Everyone's help has been much appreciated. 
I will check the R1 value when I get home from work.  I live in a different time zone so you'll see my reply Fri morning.

 

[haiku626]

I verified my visual inspection of the closely soldered connections for unwanted bridges with my meter especially with the transistors and did not find a problem.
All of the component values for R1 A and B, R2 A and B, R3, and R4 were found to be within their expected values.  Pin B6 voltage also checked out okay at 101.4
I rechecked the orientation of the capacitors and transistors along with the correct positioning of the leads.
Kreg still at .059 s/b 1.0
OA at 100.6 s/b 170
Should I try running the amp for a few hours to see if something kicks in or will I be wasting my effort?  I have never had it powered up for more than 15 minutes since the tube swapping did not move the problem to the other side.

 

[Grainger49]

Since OA is not up to voltage the cathode voltage, Kreg, would follow.  I should have spotted this earlier, sorry.

I'm printing out the schematics now. 

I think the two LEDs that glow and turn off are in that OA circuit.  The transistors are not turning on properly so they are not passing the voltage to OA.  Look at the picture on the bottom of page 29 of the manual.  Verify the resistance of R1, 113 ohms, the resistance of R2A, 120K, and that you didn't swap the two transistors (not likely because of the shapes) in this circuit.  There are only 6 circuit elements and the LEDs glow so the other four are left. 

I will add to this post knowing you are going to troubleshoot later.

 

[Paul Joppa]

The center tube (socket C) voltages would help. Inspect the wiring while there, especially whether C6 and C7 may be shorted to each other. B6 goes to C7 (assuming I have identified the parts correctly) and OA to C6, and unless there is a short I can't see how they might have the same voltage.

 

[haiku626]

Grainger said to go and study the diagrams so instead of reading the instructions over and over, I looked at the picture of the finished Eros on pg 79....  Okay, I have to admit that I did something really stupid.  I got R2A and R2B inverted which then caused me to also invert R1A and R1B because I used the color of the R2 resistor as a guide.  I removed all of them and placed them in their proper location.
Voltage Readings for the side B PC board are now KReg: .92 s/b 1.00 and OA is at 160 s/b 170vdc.  These two past problems are now history, and the good news is that the left channel now has sound.

The bad news is, and I hate to drive everyone nuts, but now the other (A side) PC board has weird voltages and no sound.  I might have jostled something on the A PC board when removing and reinstalling the resistors on the other B PC board.
Kreg: 5.01 s/b 1.0vdc and Breg: 139 s/b 100vdc.  I tried swapping the tubes and still don't have any sound and the voltage readings stay the same.  

 

[Grainger49]

Sounds like the same thing.  But were these voltages good to start with? 

If the voltages were good, then it is a loose solder joint.  Start by rewetting the solder pads where the wires are and where the wires land.  You will have to take out the screws to get to everything.

A "rewet" is taking your solder iron, put a little solder on the tip and put it on the joint.  When the joint becomes liquid count 1-2-3 (about two seconds) and remove the solder pen. 

 

[haiku626]

I rewetted all solder joints on the A side PC board except for the LEDs since they all light up.  Also rewetted all terminals and tube pins where the wires from the board connect. Still no sound on the right channel.

Kreg still out of acceptable range at 4.91vdc s/b 1.00
OB: 139 s/b 100
Breg: 139 s/b 100
OA: 140 s/b 160

Here are the tube pin voltages.  Possibly Grainger, Paul, Noskipallwd, or others can diagnose the readings to guide me. 
Socket C:
1: 143
2: 139
3: 139
4: -
5: -
6: 162
7: 94
8: 95
9: -

Socket A:
1: 139
2: -
3: 5
4: 6
5: -
6: 139
7: -
8: 5
9: -

 

[Paul Joppa]

OK, the servo (kreg) is not regulating the EF86 voltage. The relevant kreg connects to A3.

That involves the 2N2222, the 174 ohm resistor R3, and the EF86 cathode A3. I assume the EF86 in socket A is lit up, since it has the right filament voltages at pins 4 and 5. It will be difficult to test the voltages on the 2N2222, but that might narrow the field. At least check voltages on the 174 ohm resistor R3, and the correct terminals on the 2N2222.

 

[haiku626]

Hi Paul,
The 2N222 transistor is oriented properly with the tab toward the middle of the board.  The lead closest to the tab is in the middle hole.
I am not getting a voltage reading from R3 the 175 ohm resistor, and no longer can get its rated resistance reading from it (reads only .2)